Blaser Synergy 735 and Rust - Page 2
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View Poll Results: Are you happy with your current coolant?

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11. This poll is closed
  • Yep

    8 72.73%
  • Nope

    3 27.27%
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  1. #21
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    The city water supply has much to do with it. One shop I was in, the water was so hard, we called it "rock juice" - the coolants were constantly going bad, sumps always had to be cleaned, even the pumps and motors would go bad from it.

    Other place, had filters and a softener. Coolant ran forever.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    The city water supply has much to do with it. One shop I was in, the water was so hard, we called it "rock juice" - the coolants were constantly going bad, sumps always had to be cleaned, even the pumps and motors would go bad from it.

    Other place, had filters and a softener. Coolant ran forever.
    I'm on well at my Ranchito in New Mexico, the well water tastes actually really sweet and is clear … nice ,

    BUT it f*cks everything up... (every plumbing fitting, joint faucet , fixture, pump you name it )… Obviously stearates (synthetic soaps + calcium ions make tons of scum and lime deposits in addition to the ultra hard water problems.).

    I don't use it on any machines or anything technical but really regret not having water softener in the first place.

    I love that "Rock juice" exactly what it is...

    Now my well is pumping sand ( ) another expensive fix just to get it on the market.

    __________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

    Is there not a MTDS (Material Data Safety Sheet (as per OSHA regulations )) for the Blaser products ?

    That way it would be possible see what "Ingredients" are doing what … for Blasocut SW and Synergy 735

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  5. #23
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    Safety data sheets

    ^^^ This is Blaser's (material data) safety sheets download area but you have to request them specifically.

    blaser-material-data-safety-sheet-site-.jpg

    ^^^^ Key thing is you have to click on the tab on the right here (shown with big red arrow) to select the correct product group otherwise the tab defaults to "Additives/cleaners".

    So at least they should list compounds like buffering and chelating agents and so on that may or may not be present between the two products.

    Knowing something about what's in them would be a start.

    From a materials safety data point of view and OSHA regulations you have right to know what you are working with. [The exact formulation and methods of production are absent (of course) to protect proprietary information.].

  6. #24
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    OK


    blaser-mt-data-bc-35-sw-1.jpg


    ^^^ So here's one half of the smoking gun. (as I suspected) .

    Corboxylic acids casue corrosion...

    The data sheet specifies that these acids are "neutralized" with Alkanolamines

    However that's actually a bit of a false statement as the Alkanoamines act as a corrosion inhibitor acting directly on the metal's surfaces.

    I know this as a conservator and materials scientists working at the National Air and Space Museum and what was the Conservation Analytical Laboratory (at the time) [eventually nixed by Bush Jr.] we interfaced and devised all kinds of corrosion inhibitor products and mechanism with various companies that specialized in corrosion inhibitors and vapor phase corrosion inhibitors. [Many companies would come to us for all sorts of similar problems , dish washer soap companies wanting to know why their new formulation causes glass corrosion and spotting or even why a Cabbage Patch Doll has the "Measles" ; I was working on space suit deterioration, so interfaced with a lot of commercial companies that way.

    I developed cold spray transparent micro crystalline wax + techniques + vapor phase inhibitors as well vapor phase "spark" plugs for storing historic piston engine power plants (for historic aircraft) etc. etc. blah blah blah. [We had to get rid of CRC cosmoline ! .]. Anyway...

    The active (corrosion inhibiting) ingredient we were using for micro-cryslatine sprays what based on Tri-ethanolamine

    I suspect if you don't have that ion to ion balance (cancelling stoichiometry)

    THEN you could have organic acids in your machine + un inhibited corrosion IF the second product SYNERGY does not have have a Alkanoamine in it.

    Lets take a look …

    One mo.

  7. #25
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    blaser-mt-data-synergy-915.jpg

    ^^^ This is synergy 915 , can't find the Material Safety Data sheet specifically for 735 ?

    So IT DOES use Tri-ethanolamine …

    But uses other Alkanolamines and Caboxylic acids in far higher concentrations.

    I'm not a blaser user but Blasocut SW is essentially has mineral oils and soaps etc where corrosion is far less likely …

    Whereas Synergy (as I understand it ) is more aqueous based AND has approximately 15 times the amount of organic acids which promote corrosion... and Also about 15 times the concentration of corrosion inhibitors as the solution being MORE aqueous is inherently more corrosive.

    So I could definitely see why switching back to Blasocut would help impede corrosion processes at least by a factor 20.

    Also note worthy there are a lot of ingredients that aren't listed as they are deemed safe to humans.

    What people sometimes don't understand is that if you are using corrosion inhibitors it makes certain surfaces MORE cathodic, thereby making surfaces that don't have physical contact to corrosion inhibitors MORE ANODIC , i.e. causes more corrosion elsewhere, (galvanically coupled), destabilizes or accelerates corrosion elsewhere. Having comparatively more extreme concentrations of organic acids* and inhibitors could certainly cause that problem in a machine like a HAAS.
    (Like what @Digitaluddite is showing here/ has found.).

    Normally Tri-Ethanolamine displaces water at the metals surface. So areas that have access to the coolant (like Synergy) will be more cathodic thereby making other areas (not in contact with the inhibitor) more susceptible to corrosion also.


    I'll have a "Mull" over all of that.

    When Blaser say that Synergy (can) cause corrosion and it's a mixture of "Physics and chemistry" (in the brief article) I think that's what they mean.

    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________


    * We used to use organic acids to accelerate / simulate long term corrosion of metals with various products in sealed chambers. I.e. get ball park result quickly rather than waiting years.

    ** I'll root around in the garage and see if I can find some dusty old articles and conference proceedings...

    Later !

  8. #26
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    corrosion-pit-mechanism-1.jpg

    ^^^ This is your more typical corrosion pitting mechanism.

    But organic acids can accelerate that further... / exacerbate.

    AND also passivating compounds like tri-ethanolamine can shift the electro-potential and charge density in respect of galvanically coupled more anodic areas that don't have a physical film of a corrosion inhibitor.

    If you are not using distilled water then there is a high likelihood of chlorides being present.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________


    Blaser is probably aware of all of this, it's a question of what one can do about it in a positive and actionable way ?

  9. #27
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    There's over thousand types of coolants on the market, you can only screw around with something for so long before realizing its time to change to something else. Sometimes magically all the problems go away and it wasn't you or your water after all.

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