Books or material on 3D surface machining?

Hi,

The company I work for have recently purchased a Mazak e1250v which we are going to be doing some 3D surfacing with when it is delivered in 12 months time.

I have never done any surface machining before (expect the odd chamfer or radius), so was wondering if there is any good books or training material about 3D surfacing as id like to get some sort of an idea before the machine arrives and hopefully test some tool paths etc.

Let me know if you guys have any suggestions on the best way to approach learning this topic!

Cheers

barbter said:

What CAM system are you using?
Contact them and ask and also search youtube for videos etc.

Click to expand...

Using SolidCAM, they have loads of good content online but i was wondering if there are any best practises? how much stol to leave? scallp height? how to calcl finishes etc

what im after might not exist

KristianSilva said:

Using SolidCAM, they have loads of good content online but i was wondering if there are any best practises? how much stol to leave? scallp height? how to calcl finishes etc

what im after might not exist

Click to expand...

It been a while since I've been doing the SolidCam thing and I may get back in to that before long for 5 axis,

My impression of SoildCam at the time that they have / had a lot of "best practice" built into the interface, they make a lot of effort to work with real machinsits and machines to make sure what they "Prescribe" is actually useful and adheres to 'best practice" as much as possible.

I found their manuals to be very instructive for machining processes.

Are you also thinking like barrel tools and swarf milling etc ?

the e1250V that's the big 5 axis mill turn machine

Does SolidCam** have a proven post for that ? I'd look into Software stability as in the past that has been a bit of tripple decker sh*t sandwich. Because it's built inside Solidworks there can be problems from the ground up (as follows) that are beyond SolidCam's control.



Microsoft operating system ---> Graphics card + chip drivers ---> OpenGl rendering issues + version control for SolidWorks ----> SolidCam built inside of that.


Historically transition in and out of MS-Vista (face palm) to HW and SW problems + rendering issues + Solid Works + SolidCAM made for a bad time back then … But since then things have been majorly cleaned up and more reliable/ much more stable.

Solutions that BREAK the dependence on all that will bring greater reliability... I.e. export CAD models to a separate CAM program … I'm thinking maybe more ESPRIT kind of territory Or HYPERMILL* ?

Also with SolidCam if that's hooked onto your main license of SolidWorks and that seat happens to have all the bells and whistles such as engineering FEA simulation and more besides you can't asynchronously upgrade your licenses. So(if that's the case) BEST to buy a separate seat of Solidworks JUST for SolidCam… It becomes much less of a cluster f*** that way and is more economical and reliable.


On a big complex expensive machine you wanna get the most bomb proof and reliable solution and then maybe branch out to more exotic processes + alternate software over time.

Kinda depends if you are the designer/ "devisor" or not ? If you feel that having that integrated tight loop between design and CAM/machining processes makes your product better then SolidCam can be great for that... IF on then other hand you have complex multi tasking operations on more standard / inflexible designs like jet engine parts , then SolidCam inside of SW or inventor/Autodesk may not be you best "Process" / workflow (in terms of reliability).


3d surfacing is much more of no-brainer compared to some of the Gotcha's for 5 axis mill turn in general from a pure machining point of view (IMO) even for mostly positional work BUT the MAZAK Smooth control at least has really good tool path interrogation almost (Almost what you see is what you get).

____________________________________________________________________


With SolidCam (as you know you can have your Kev-cam free online webinar based two way tutorials...) So you can ask them exactly what you want them to cover or teach and they can do that in a custom tutorial free of charge as part of one of their "Kev-Cam " SolidCam "professor" group evening classes.


SoildCam does try to listen to their users and make improvements form user suggestions pretty directly.

_______________________

*/** No affiliation.

I'm a loooooong time SolidCAM user. Hooking you up YouTube

cameraman said:

I found their manuals to be very instructive for machining processes.

Are you also thinking like barrel tools and swarf milling etc ?

the e1250V that's the big 5 axis mill turn machine

Does SolidCam** have a proven post for that ? I'd look into Software stability as in the past that has been a bit of tripple decker sh*t sandwich. Because it's built inside Solidworks there can be problems from the ground up (as follows) that are beyond SolidCam's control.

I'm thinking maybe more ESPRIT kind of territory Or HYPERMILL* ?

Also with SolidCam if that's hooked onto your main license of SolidWorks and that seat happens to have all the bells and whistles such as engineering FEA simulation and more besides you can't asynchronously upgrade your licenses. So(if that's the case) BEST to buy a separate seat of Solidworks JUST for SolidCam… It becomes much less of a cluster f*** that way and is more economical and reliable.


On a big complex expensive machine you wanna get the most bomb proof and reliable solution and then maybe branch out to more exotic processes + alternate software over time.

Kinda depends if you are the designer/ "devisor" or not ? If you feel that having that integrated tight loop between design and CAM/machining processes makes your product better then SolidCam can be great for that... IF on then other hand you have complex multi tasking operations on more standard / inflexible designs like jet engine parts , then SolidCam inside of SW or inventor/Autodesk may not be you best "Process" / workflow (in terms of reliability).


3d surfacing is much more of no-brainer compared to some of the Gotcha's for 5 axis mill turn in general from a pure machining point of view (IMO) even for mostly positional work BUT the MAZAK Smooth control at least has really good tool path interrogation almost (Almost what you see is what you get).

Click to expand...

OK I will go through the material and exercises we got in training and make notes.

Really im not to sure, just trying to learn more. Mazak and SolidCAM are providing a proven post, we have purchased the software on Mazak's recommendation so we are hoping they will work well together, although prior to this we had looked at other integrated systems because we are SolidWORKS users so its great to be integrated with our design team.

The machine and software are part of a package from Mazak to help us manuifacure hydro lectric turbines, if you want to have a quick look at what we are going to be making on the machine just google "machined pelton runner" and "machined francis runner"....

Its going to be a steep learning curve!

DFrench said:

I'm a loooooong time SolidCAM user. Hooking you up YouTube

Click to expand...

Thanks I hadnt seen this vid! Ive added it to my watch list, im trying to do 1 KevCAM video a day on my lunch break.

KristianSilva said:

OK I will go through the material and exercises we got in training and make notes.

Really im not to sure, just trying to learn more. Mazak and SolidCAM are providing a proven post, we have purchased the software on Mazak's recommendation so we are hoping they will work well together, although prior to this we had looked at other integrated systems because we are SolidWORKS users so its great to be integrated with our design team.

The machine and software are part of a package from Mazak to help us manuifacure hydro lectric turbines, if you want to have a quick look at what we are going to be making on the machine just google "machined pelton runner" and "machined francis runner"....

Its going to be a steep learning curve!



Thanks I hadnt seen this vid! Ive added it to my watch list, im trying to do 1 KevCAM video a day on my lunch break.

Click to expand...

^^^ Randomly picked video...

Back in the day I tested about ten competing CAD/CAM packages over the course of about 18 months... [before that /Previously (different project) I did a Ph.D in CAD laboratory / VR software development department / research/ R&D. Cambridge University UK]. Just some background / context. I (personally) found SolidCam to have the least troublesome learning curve out of all the professional level software platforms I tested and the manuals and tutorials to be the most helpful (GOOD documentation, not sure how it is now ?). MUCH has changed since then and some of the stragglers (then) have now really gotten their shizzle together and leapfrogged over some of their competitors.

Some of their (SolidCam's) current 5 axis strategies seem really interesting to me / looking forward to giving those a spin/ trying those out (seem very real world yet intuitive).

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________


In the USA MAZAK mainly endorse Mastercam and Esprit on their Mill turn platform (more regular B axis mill turn like an Integrex I-200 or similar).

I got to admit that's pretty awesome that MAZAK (Europe/UK) would step up and endorse SolidCam for these Hydroelectric "Pelton Runner(s)"...

I can see why... Crazy amount of material removal as the buckets are integral to the hub as a single / solid piece.

Without sounding like a SolidCam shill (lol) I can see where High Speed machining strategies and some trochoidal strategies + I-machining would be super helpful + TRUE 5 axis contouring moves (in cut) and 3D surfacing (using all 5 axes simultaneously) would be mission critical.


I can also see that the MAZAK Smooth control is good combo for that as it seems that potentially collision avoidance + efficient machining strategies have to go hand in hand on such awkward geometry / pelton / Francis runner. The Smooth control (computationally IMO) has the most horse power and is the fastest out there and has serious graphics capability to interrogate really tricky tool paths on long programs. + REAL/ realish high resolution model/ collision detection capability. Couldn't tell you how that would stack up against a good implementation of CAMPLETE ?

Honestly (as obviously) you'll break everything down step by step methodically that seems like you have picked one of the MOST friendly combinations / lesser learning curve on the planet for what you are trying to do. I don't expect for HYDRO - type bucket pelton thingy's that ultra high tolerances will be such a major consideration as compared to some Jet engine parts. So I don't see SolidCam being obstructive on that front.

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@KristianSilva MAZAK have a thing where you can cough up about $15K for three weeks training etc. on site, they can also for similar amount set up and prove out programs that you are most likely to use. So for example in the case of the Francis (bucket based) pelton "Thingys" (can I call it a power recovery unit ?,)… Appart from Turning operations and flipping the part over The same buckets are being cut again and again in a repeated program.

Just spit balling, if MAZAK can set you up with a higher level interface GUI/ set of macros like they have for their AG (gear type machines) where you put in gross parameters for your pelton bucket runner, and code is generated for different part families ? (Sorta parametric approach to program generation at a high level) ? And then maybe some in process inspection with the Renishaw newer 3d surface probes … Not trying to make things over complicated but seems that the platform you are working with $-wise would be commensurate for such process control and higher level automated program generation ? (Maybe ?).

Together they could pull a package together that makes things super easy if your part families are narrow/ very specific / very similar to each-other. In other words NOT a high mix (lowish volume) scenario …

________________


I have to be honest If I want to learn almost mold level 3d surfacing approaches (for high precision and high surface finish parts) and techniques I watch all the Makino webinars lol (Unfortunately they have mashed their interface into something that's more difficult to navigate.). Not sure what the "mold level" surfacing you can get with the MAZAK e1250V but SolidCam should have good strategies to get to near final surfaces pretty efficiently.

Tool selection (as always) will be pretty critical. I think MAZAK smooth control is good for Sandvik tool descriptions but not sure how you get other (non Sandvik) descriptions / geometries / models from other more diverse companies nicely onto the control (in 3d) ? , and how best to program that/ create tool libraries that make sense (between CAD/CAM (SolidCam)/MAZAK control ?).

cameraman said:

Back in the day I tested about ten competing CAD/CAM packages over the course of about 18 months... [before that /Previously (different project) I did a Ph.D in CAD laboratory / VR software development department / research/ R&D. Cambridge University UK]
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________

I got to admit that's pretty awesome that MAZAK (Europe/UK) would step up and endorse SolidCam for these Hydroelectric "Pelton Runner(s)"...

I can see why... Crazy amount of material removal as the buckets are integral to the hub as a single / solid piece.

Without sounding like a SolidCam shill (lol) I can see where High Speed machining strategies and some trochoidal strategies + I-machining would be super helpful + TRUE 5 axis contouring moves (in cut) and 3D surfacing (using all 5 axes simultaneously) would be mission critical.

Honestly (as obviously) you'll break everything down step by step methodically that seems like you have picked one of the MOST friendly combinations / lesser learning curve on the planet for what you are trying to do. I don't expect for HYDRO - type bucket pelton thingy's that ultra high tolerances will be such a major consideration as compared to some Jet engine parts. So I don't see SolidCam being obstructive on that front.

__________________________________________________ _____________________

@KristianSilva MAZAK have a thing where you can cough up about $15K for three weeks training etc. on site, they can also for similar amount set up and prove out programs that you are most likely to use. So for example in the case of the Francis (bucket based) pelton "Thingys" (can I call it a power recovery unit ?,)… Appart from Turning operations and flipping the part over The same buckets are being cut again and again in a repeated program.

Just spit balling, if MAZAK can set you up with a higher level interface GUI/ set of macros like they have for their AG (gear type machines) where you put in gross parameters for your pelton bucket runner, and code is generated for different part families ? (Sorta parametric approach to program generation at a high level) ? And then maybe some in process inspection with the Renishaw newer 3d surface probes … Not trying to make things over complicated but seems that the platform you are working with $-wise would be commensurate for such process control and higher level automated program generation ? (Maybe ?).
________________


I have to be honest If I want to learn almost mold level 3d surfacing approaches (for high precision and high surface finish parts) and techniques I watch all the Makino webinars lol (Unfortunately they have mashed their interface into something that's more difficult to navigate.). Not sure what the "mold level" surfacing you can get with the MAZAK e1250V but SolidCam should have good strategies to get to near final surfaces pretty efficiently.

Tool selection (as always) will be pretty critical. I think MAZAK smooth control is good for Sandvik tool descriptions but not sure how you get other (non Sandvik) descriptions / geometries / models from other more diverse companies nicely onto the control (in 3d) ? , and how best to program that/ create tool libraries that make sense (between CAD/CAM (SolidCam)/MAZAK control ?).

Click to expand...

Really intresting to know what you did your PhD in, what is it that you do for work currently? Must have been intresting testing 10 CAM packages. Im doing my BEng degree at the moment in mechanical engineering but am finding am more and more intrested in amnufacturing than anything else so its good to know there are opertunities out there for further study in this area.

Its funny you say that but iMachining is the only module that we haven't bought, the third party to this project is ISCAR (they frequently colaborate with SolidCAM and MAzak), they suggested we dont need the iMachining because we are going to be doing the main roughing with high feed mills etc, where as imachining is only suitable for large depth of cut small radial engagement milling. ISCAR have worked with SolidCAM to integrate a tool library of their tools directly into SolidCAM so getting tool geometry should be straight forward.

We will be using a stand-alone smooth controller in our office with machine and tool models to simulate the program.

Tolerances are 0.2mm pfrofile of surface on all faces, the concentricities and perpendicularities are tighter but shouldnt be an issue as they can be done in the same op.

Unfortunately I dont think the parametric approach is an option because the form of the buckets its unique for every runner as the runners are designed specifically for the flow of water that they will see in service. I like the idea and may be possible in future but the designs are not standardized at the moment.

Could you provide a link to the Makino mold webinars?

KristianSilva said:

Really intresting to know what you did your PhD in, what is it that you do for work currently? Must have been intresting testing 10 CAM packages. Im doing my BEng degree at the moment in mechanical engineering but am finding am more and more intrested in amnufacturing than anything else so its good to know there are opertunities out there for further study in this area.

Its funny you say that but iMachining is the only module that we haven't bought, the third party to this project is ISCAR (they frequently colaborate with SolidCAM and MAzak), they suggested we dont need the iMachining because we are going to be doing the main roughing with high feed mills etc, where as imachining is only suitable for large depth of cut small radial engagement milling. ISCAR have worked with SolidCAM to integrate a tool library of their tools directly into SolidCAM so getting tool geometry should be straight forward.

We will be using a stand-alone smooth controller in our office with machine and tool models to simulate the program.

Tolerances are 0.2mm pfrofile of surface on all faces, the concentricities and perpendicularities are tighter but shouldnt be an issue as they can be done in the same op.

Unfortunately I dont think the parametric approach is an option because the form of the buckets its unique for every runner as the runners are designed specifically for the flow of water that they will see in service. I like the idea and may be possible in future but the designs are not standardized at the moment.

Could you provide a link to the Makino mold webinars?

Click to expand...

Webinars | Makino

^^^ You have to kinda sign in / register. There are hundreds of webinars and a decent collection of white papers.

The online search engine is total "Pants" so you may have to manually scroll through a lot of Webinars to find what you want. Even the really old ones are useful.

As far as a "Text" book on what you are looking for, there are some cursory / intro type books to five axis but not aware of a "Book" per se on best practices through CAD/CAM (for what you are looking for) as so much is proprietary and in flux. The point being unless you are writing CAM software you don't have a great deal of choices or control as to what you can do other than various combinations of the various strategies offered + testing. All of this is a moving target and even stuff that was super hot ten or fifteen years ago is old hat now (in some cases. Oldish textbooks as such may not serve you all that well). You are basically working with some of the latest technology on the planet / cutting edge (no pun intended) "For realz" in industry. If after doing all the tutorials and testing you need, you can write to the founder of SolidCam (I think he's based in Tel Aviv (Israel) Will dig up name in a mo... He's very passionate on the algorithmic and mathematical side and how that relates to serious machining applications (obviously) so you might be able to point out what's "Missing" in his documentation, tutorials or what's really needed beyond what is offered.

Beyond that actually testing other CAD/CAM packages is a good way to go to see what other methods and strategies exist but that would assume you are running a trial to determine which CAD/CAM systems to invest in , but if you are locked into SolidCAM (in a good way) then... (I don't know what to say).

There are more academic "Machining science" journals one can dig deep on, published papers / studies on a particular type of tool or cutting action or interface issue with tool coating on particular materials under certain cutting conditions etc. (kind of thing) but not so much on actual surfacing strategies.


@KristianSilva Kinda fun that you will have a Smooth control in the office to torture a bit lol. Also cool that ISCAR help connect the final dots on everything with SolidCam and MAZAK... That super that they all step up in partnership to make that all work ! Sometimes having to select not very well tested and not well integrated solutions can leave a lot to fall in the gaps. Having the "Little guy" in some cases (all on their own) to bridge such potentially large industrial gaps is perhaps not so fair.

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As part of a research based Ph.D. I designed / invented a new reality capture and rendering process. I did a bunch of research fellowships and have about 12 patents on the core technology in various territories including Japan, Europe, India, Canada, USA , UK blah blah blah … So right now I have my own little ship and company and have been trying to engineer the high precision "Eyes" 3d imaging systems (physical hardware) for the software I/ we have been developing. Ultra precise stereo/ machine vision / photogrammetric systems of the highest accuracy / metrology grade. Originally did a lot of leg work on the MAZAK front, was very close to pulling the trigger on an Integrex I-200 BUT the sales people I was dealing with disappeared, months went by a new sales person was 'Inserted" and all the prices were virtually double straight off the bat.. So I thought "F*ck that for game of soldiers" as I literally don't have to time to jump through all the same hoops again and again. Instead I have gotten really seriously into jig grinding, redesigned almost everything we have to build (more complex components greater use of hardened materails) and more extensive use of CF for structural elements, so consequently Integrex style mill turn is less relevant and we are leaning heavily towards HERMLE (for our next purchases) and farm out some precision shaft work.

That's why I'm kinda interested to what CAD/CAM packages might play nicely with the HERMLE C-250 and explore some of the nicer more cosmetic options for 5 axis chamfering and things that generally will reduce hand finishing. Some of the stuff from Powermill / Autodesk seem really interesting as well as Hypermill. ESPRIT seemed like a safe option / very well worked out for the B axis mill turn like the Integrex I-200.

KristianSilva said:

......they suggested we dont need the iMachining because we are going to be doing the main roughing with high feed mills etc, where as imachining is only suitable for large depth of cut small radial engagement milling.....

Click to expand...

On the Integrex E1060/V8 I learned that you really wanted your tool assemblies to not have more than about 8" gage length for decent milling performance. If longer tools were needed then plunge milling was the most reliable solution for roughing. We never tried "high feed mill" type tools though.

A few random points that you probably already know...


So in high end mold work where you have almost micron level referenced geometries and astounding surface finishes (gouge free) have mainly been carried out on specialized / high end 3 axis machines. Something like a Makino F3 or F5 or V33i.


Only more recently have 5 axis machines become sufficiently advanced in terms of kinematics and precisions and accuracies of the way they move that true sim 5 axis moves of the quality demanded by mold work is possible.

So with your Pelton runners it seems that 5 axis positioning for 3 axis static contouring (at each angular position) may not be the most efficient. At least looking at how "Peeps" are machining these things (posted Youtube videos). "They" seem to be using full sim 5 axis moves.


So when going through the Makino webinars they focus on various scenarios (mainly from automotive and some avaiation) about Sim 5 axis mold level work including various software strategies.

@KristianSilva do you have any idea as to what surface finishes you will typically be going for ? Or what scallop heights / "Micro" profiles do you have to get to before the part is pulled off the machine ?

I know for aviation that impellers and blisks are only taken so far (in terms of actual machining processes) and then are (in some cases) have specialized 5 axis grinding equipment (after further heat treatments) and even robotic arm type "Polishing" / finishing equipment.

For your Pelton runners what alloys are you making those from ? Is it a nickel or bronze alloy of some kind ?


And... What finishing processes do you guys use / fixin to use after machining on your MAZAK e1250V ?


I guess what I'm trying to say is that Your pelton runners may not be brought anywhere near the surface finishes typically required for tool and die work. (At least for practical purposes via 5 axis cnc mill turn.).

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


SolidCam was founded in 1984 by Dr. Emil Somekh, CEO of SolidCAM

SolidCAM has over 30 years of expertise in CAM development and applications.

SolidCAM CAM Software: About SolidCAM


[@KristianSilva ]. So Dr. Emil Somekh (as I say) is very passionate about the algorithms and mathematics but also designed the product and documentation to be very didactic / instructive (almost an expert system) (Way ahead of NX CAM on that front back in the day) and dovetail well with industry partners. Given that you are both industry and University based that if after going through all the tutorials and structured testing over a period of a year or more (for your specific application) and you still feel that there are things missing that could be enhanced or added to or made more clear or new tutorials that could be built in, I'm sure they would be "All ears" as to what you find and maybe do something about it.


The one key difference about SolidCam is they DO engage with their users and they are not deaf to them. Some other CAD/CAM developers / companies are more concerned about what Boeing or Lockheed Martin "Thinks" (no judgment, it's the little guy is easy to ignore/doesn't impact the bottom line.).

Vancbiker said:

On the Integrex E1060/V8 I learned that you really wanted your tool assemblies to not have more than about 8" gage length for decent milling performance. If longer tools were needed then plunge milling was the most reliable solution for roughing. We never tried "high feed mill" type tools though.

Click to expand...

Just to extrapolate a smidge on what Vanc is kinda saying here / hinting at also and combined with some other things...

The integrex style milling head can be a bit deceptive (from looking externally ) as to exactly where the spindle bearings really are.

Given that you are a mechanical engineering student watch the Makino webinar on tool bending moment... Basically it's about how some customer's don't trash their spindle bearings and some do. THEY Makino point the finger at catastrophic failures caused by superficially seemingly safe use of longer tool lengths that turn out to (inadvertently) exceed a certain catastrophic threshold. Or at least one that is not obvious. Hence the need to calculate tool bending moments.

I can't remember the exact formula but (I think) is of the order of the 4th or 5th power... So it means that if you don't know where your spindle bearings really are or you just sneak a tool in to be about 2.0" longer that a catastrophic failure can be precipitated (without warning).


@KristianSilva I would (If I were you) maybe ask for a cutaway diagram of the milling spindle head (they can do that) so you can locate the actual position and diameter of the spindle bearings to better "Gauge" the gauge lengths you don't want to exceed under certain cutting conditions..

Seems some of the moves required for these Pelton runners need long skinny tools and make moves sorta reminiscent of port machining... So not big forces involved and I assume the tool will snap and the machine can do a 5 axis safe retract. For massive material removal ???? Tool lengths and still not clear what you are cutting / best torque curve for that ???

@KS Do you know what spindle you guys are going with on the MAZAK e1250V ?

cameraman said:

....The integrex style milling head can be a bit deceptive (from looking externally ) as to exactly where the spindle bearings really are.

Click to expand...

Because of the location of the curvic coupling and associated hydraulic piston used to lock the spindle for the turning mode, the spindle bearings are a couple inches further away from the spindle nose than most machines. Also the spindle shaft is a smaller diameter than one would find in comparable 50 taper spindles. It is a packaging problem in trying to fit all the needed equipment into the head.

At OP, you will want to be sure to order scale feedback on the rotary axes. At the purchase of the machine we had, the scale option was broken down into scales for X and Y (Z has scales standard to support the dual axis drive design used) and a separate line item for scales on the rotary axes. Maybe that is different now or handled differently in the UK versus the US, but you'll want to verify.

cameraman said:

Webinars | Makino





That's why I'm kinda interested to what CAD/CAM packages might play nicely with the HERMLE C-250 and explore some of the nicer more cosmetic options for 5 axis chamfering and things that generally will reduce hand finishing. Some of the stuff from Powermill / Autodesk seem really interesting as well as Hypermill. ESPRIT seemed like a safe option / very well worked out for the B axis mill turn like the Integrex I-200.

Click to expand...

I agree with the Makino webinars, I have gone thru all of them in the past and they can provide with great info. I also purchased a book "Hardmilling" from Hardmilling.com another great source. As you might have remembered in the past, I program and run a C42 from Hermle.. I have been a Powermill user for around 20 years give or take. The toolpaths are fantastic to run on the Heidenhain control, some extremely smooth and sexy moves, however since Autodesk stuck their nose in there, the support has,, well, sucked.

5 axis Fidia guy said:

I agree with the Makino webinars, I have gone thru all of them in the past and they can provide with great info. I also purchased a book "Hardmilling" from Hardmilling.com another great source. As you might have remembered in the past, I program and run a C42 from Hermle.. I have been a Powermill user for around 20 years give or take. The toolpaths are fantastic to run on the Heidenhain control, some extremely smooth and sexy moves, however since Autodesk stuck their nose in there, the support has,, well, sucked.

Click to expand...

Hey ! Thanks for the tip(s) (really appreciate that)…

"Hardmilling " sounds perfect (from Hardmilling.com) will check that out / probably buy into that. I HAVE actually been trying to find out more about hardmilling in general to see what I can get away with (especially on the Hermle/ Hermle(s)) versus getting sucked down too deeply down the 'Rabbit hole" on jig grinding (there are some amazing things you can do and I don't think the Hermle "Peeps" are gonna like me trying out hacked grinding cycles on their machines lol so hardmilling + lapping for certain functional surfaces could be very good. ).


Good to know the software/ toolpaths is sexy and plays nice on the Heidenhain control, but the support sucks lol (can't have it all right ??? lol)

5 axis Fidia guy said:

I agree with the Makino webinars, I have gone thru all of them in the past and they can provide with great info. I also purchased a book "Hardmilling" from Hardmilling.com another great source. As you might have remembered in the past, I program and run a C42 from Hermle.. I have been a Powermill user for around 20 years give or take. The toolpaths are fantastic to run on the Heidenhain control, some extremely smooth and sexy moves, however since Autodesk stuck their nose in there, the support has,, well, sucked.

Click to expand...

This book ? ---> https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Hard-M...98/ref=olp_product_details?_encoding=UTF8&me=


"Guide to Hard Milling and High Speed Machining "

by Dale Mickelson ?


The review was interesting,


"3.0 out of 5 stars

Fun to look at but overall... not that useful

February 20, 2011

Format: HardcoverVerified Purchase

If you're in the market for a high-speed machining center; namely, an Okuma, Yasda, Roku Roku, Mikron, Johnford or Moore, you'll get a nice look at them and a number of each manufacturer's demo parts, each with a basic tool list (no brand names or detailed cutter information), operation cycle times and speed and feeds.

Each manufacturer's lineup of machines is covered in some detail with basic build information and aforementioned demo machined components. That consumes some 70% of the book. The rest hits on the basics of toolholders and begs the question... Why allocate a chapter discussing the merits of CAT shank systems (Big-Plus' advantage over standard CAT etc.)? Most machines of this caliber have moved on to HSK. Some of the cutting tests comparing various CAT and HSK is telling enough but again, not that useful in the end considering current machine configurations.

What's missing from this book is the real tech behind hard milling and hi-speed milling practices. Basic rules of thumb, when to use a hi-feed mill over a ball or bull-nose, the advantages and disadvantage of each, basic rules for axial and radial depths, how effective cutter diameter plays into the process, chip thinning, parameters for trochoidal slotting/pocketing, you know... the things you really want to learn from a "guide to hard milling and high speed machining".

Overall, it's a decent book and I wouldn't have been disappointed in the least if the title were, "Guide to Hard Milling Machines from Okuma, Yasda, Roku Roku, Mikron, Johnford and Moore"

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OR this book :-)


https://www.amazon.com/High-Speed-H...2DPT66DRDEH&psc=1&refRID=67CP1STKB2DPT66DRDEH


"High-Speed, Hard-Milling Solutions (Modern Machine Shop Books) "


By William G Howard (basically Makino's product line manager ) of Makino webinar "Fame".

"This lavishly illustrated full-color book, written by Makinos Vertical Machining Center Product Line Manager, addresses not only the machine tool and its characteristics, but also critical support technologies. The focus is on how to invest in technology that will supply maximum results for high-speed, hard milling applications. The text is structured to provide an easy flow, quick review for the reader, and yet still be used as a detailed reference. It is formatted in a question-and-answer fashion, detailing what an owner, purchaser, or operator should know relative to making a machine tool investment specifically targeting high-speed, hard milling applications typical of the die and mold market."

It's about $780.00


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Can't find hardmilling.com lol I don't think you are pulling my leg ?

My bad, I cant find the site either, I wonder if it changed to hardmilling solutions. However the books you list I don't think are the ones.. The second book is for sure not.. I paid about 50$ 10 or so years ago, and it since walked off with a past disgruntled worker, so I can't say for sure, the cover was different. It did go into endmill manufactures and wrote of specific OGS, Mits.. endmills ect. Which work better and in what instances. Maybe it was just the older version that I had, it pisses me off that is disappeared. It was a good read. On another note, Helical-Harvey tool got together and made a pdf download called HEM machining guide. I'ts a good source of info, but stresses mostly on "high efficiency machining". There is a big difference between HEM, and HSM "high speed machining", and many people get the terms confused.