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Box turning tool in my ST10, how is this supposed to be set up?

kustomizer

Diamond
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Location
North Fork Idaho
We have had these centerless ground in the past, we moved, they closed, we need a new plan.
It is 6061, .437 +- .001 x 8 inches long with a full radius on one end, I would like to start with 1/2" extruded bar.
I just bought a box turning tool that does not have to feed all the way back off the whole 8", it's cutter is spring loaded to retract a bit.
I would like to use our ST10 and do them in house, I only need about 500 per year.
Can someone here tell me the proper way to set up this box turning tool.
I called the manufacturer several times, thinking I would buy a new one, there is never anyone there that can help me and they don't call back.
After several weeks of waiting to hear from them, I bought this one on ebay, I figured for under $100. I ain't out much if I can't make it work but am hoping it will.
IMG_3452.jpgIMG_3453.jpgIMG_3454.jpgIMG_3455.jpg
 
Boy when I was looking to box turn I had a heck of a time finding good solutions. I purchased a brand that tried to help but it seemed like anybody who still remembered how to use them was gone.

My application was a bit tougher than yours though.

If I were you I’d ditch the box turning if you can. I think you will be better off with a sub spindle lathe. I’ve heard of and read in a machine manual about using a twin spindle machine as a Swiss. Essentially turn the first inch of your part normal with little stick out. Then have the sub come grab it. And then have a tight collet in the main that is open and syncs the spindles and hold the turning tool in place while the sub pulls the bar out.

I did get the box turning to work out but the biggest issue was if any chips got into the rollers it would destroy the finish. And it was basically a 50/50 on the parts I was working on.
 
I can't see buying a new lathe for 500 pcs per year and I am defiantly not looking to expand or look for more work to feed such a machine though it is an interesting option of that type of machine I had never thought of. We are wanting to keep in house any work we can and we are almost there, I have this and some wooden parts to figure out then we will be quote unquote self sufficient. I have been wondering about the shavings, given my DOC I am expecting a birdnest though this machine has a lot of coolant pressure
 
I bought a royal master centerless grinder for a similar job, but then the job went away. Never did get it powered up. If interested give me a shout.

I managed to get by in my case turning between centers and few spring passes, then polish out light chatter marks. I was doing 12.5mm from 1/2" bar about 9" long.
 
Box Tool setting

We have had these centerless ground in the past, we moved, they closed, we need a new plan.
It is 6061, .437 +- .001 x 8 inches long with a full radius on one end, I would like to start with 1/2" extruded bar.
I just bought a box turning tool that does not have to feed all the way back off the whole 8", it's cutter is spring loaded to retract a bit.
I would like to use our ST10 and do them in house, I only need about 500 per year.
Can someone here tell me the proper way to set up this box turning tool.
I called the manufacturer several times, thinking I would buy a new one, there is never anyone there that can help me and they don't call back.
After several weeks of waiting to hear from them, I bought this one on ebay, I figured for under $100. I ain't out much if I can't make it work but am hoping it will.
View attachment 335474View attachment 335475View attachment 335476View attachment 335477
I would start by Turning the Full Radius and the .437 Día for a short distance close to the Collet or chuck with a turning tool. Then adjust the Box tool cutting tool to where it just touches the .437 dia and then adjust the rollers to where they just touch the top and the rear all while close to the chuck. There 2 types of roller and blocks. Some the roller leads the cutting tool and some trail the cutting tool. By leading you will be following the original bar 1/2" dia if THE ROLLERS trail the cutting tool you are using the finish dia (.437)for the rollers to follow. They do make the block's in the two types. Then I would feed it out to where you you can feed the 8" + the amount needed for the radius for the next part. The bar will need to run true after its fed out until the rollers and tool are upon it if not the bar will start whipping and then you have a problem. I would start it pretty slow and after it is cutting you can speed it up.
Chips can be a problem .Rollers do not like them so it's very important to manage them.

What finish do you need?

Good Luck
 
The one I have is the type with the rollers trailing the cutter, I was thinking the process would be as you said. I have it in my mind that the rollers when properly adjusted should be slightly loose when set so they don't drag on retract but I could be all wet on that, I was also thinking a slight taper turned by the first tool following the full radius might help the box tool get started but there again I am not certain. Having never been around box tools I am hoping to not have to reinvent the process. I have searched and not found much though I did find some PM stuff on box tools with a google search but they have left me with the same confusion.
 
A) A sub-spindle machine isn't really gunna doo anything for you on this job that a live center wouldn't.
And going back after it a second time will at least leave a witness mark. (on any lathe)

B) I like the B/S with retracting insert. That's a good tool!
But - you need to figger out if your rolls are fore or aft the insert.
If they are fore, it is easier to run it, but you won't hold the tols on extruded bar as you will always turn to a dimmension that is X smaller than the OD of the bar.
If your rolls are aft the insert, getting it going is a bigger challenge, but you are more likely to hold size as your rolls are gauging off the turned D.


We are going to ass_u_me that your unit is a roll after insert style:


You will need to have your part pre-turned to size before you feed it out, OR you could prolly doo a pre-turn with the help of a live center.
Either way, you will need to have it turned to the right size for maybe 1/4" or whatnot...

Slow the spindle way down as you bring your tool up to it.
Make sure that you have a good chamfer on the wheels so that they want to capture the bar [that may be spinning slightly out of center?]

Go ahead and ramp up R's and feed on.

Slow to 200 rpm (?) once you reach bottom.

Now, when I set the heads up, I like to have my insert basically straight accrost the part from where your turning tool would be.
Say it again - so that the insert is indexed to X- side, and inline with X travel.
So - now when I pull off, I like to run a feed-out move to gradually push down more and more in X- as I go - reason being, that your 8" shaft isn't likely to be 100% concentric like it would be had you free-turned it. So - the further I get from the chuck, I like to put a little more tension on the rollers so that even on the "flop" side of the shaft, that it is still agginst the rollers and not coming out to whack the insert.

Follow that?

G1 U-.01 (?) Z.1 F200.

Not

G0 U-.01 Z.1

The G0 will load all the tension in X right away.
I want to gradually load it as I get away from the chuck.
The further that I get away from the chuck / size of the rod / straightness of the rod, I may want to load that U more and more.
At 8" from the chuck - your not going to bend it from keeping tension on the rollers.


Set-up:

Even if you was to decide to doo your pre-turn on the live center, for set-up, I want to still doo a turn up at the spindle to size.
Then I handwheel my insert up to it, and then adjust my rolls to the turned diameter.



Tip:

Any allowances between your pre-turn and your head set diameter will have the unit producing an hourglass shape back and forth until it finds home.
This is prolly the biggest challenge regarding the rolls aft the insert design. But once you finally git it right - it should run 'till Tuesday.


'Nother Tip:

Take that head and squirell it away for JUST this job, or at least just this diameter so that you don't haft'a Richard with it again the next time.




edit:

Last 2 posts were not there when I started my reply.


----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
A) A sub-spindle machine isn't really gunna doo anything for you on this job that a live center wouldn't.
And going back after it a second time will at least leave a witness mark. (on any lathe)

B) I like the B/S with retracting insert. That's a good tool!
But - you need to figger out if your rolls are fore or aft the insert.
If they are fore, it is easier to run it, but you won't hold the tols on extruded bar as you will always turn to a dimmension that is X smaller than the OD of the bar.
If your rolls are aft the insert, getting it going is a bigger challenge, but you are more likely to hold size as your rolls are gauging off the turned D.


We are going to ass_u_me that your unit is a roll after insert style:


You will need to have your part pre-turned to size before you feed it out, OR you could prolly doo a pre-turn with the help of a live center.
Either way, you will need to have it turned to the right size for maybe 1/4" or whatnot...

Slow the spindle way down as you bring your tool up to it.
Make sure that you have a good chamfer on the wheels so that they want to capture the bar [that may be spinning slightly out of center?]

Go ahead and ramp up R's and feed on.

Slow to 200 rpm (?) once you reach bottom.

Now, when I set the heads up, I like to have my insert basically straight accrost the part from where your turning tool would be.
Say it again - so that the insert is indexed to X- side, and inline with X travel.
So - now when I pull off, I like to run a feed-out move to gradually push down more and more in X- as I go - reason being, that your 8" shaft isn't likely to be 100% concentric like it would be had you free-turned it. So - the further I get from the chuck, I like to put a little more tension on the rollers so that even on the "flop" side of the shaft, that it is still agginst the rollers and not coming out to whack the insert.

Follow that?

G1 U-.01 (?) Z.1 F200.

Not

G0 U-.01 Z.1

The G0 will load all the tension in X right away.
I want to gradually load it as I get away from the chuck.
The further that I get away from the chuck / size of the rod / straightness of the rod, I may want to load that U more and more.
At 8" from the chuck - your not going to bend it from keeping tension on the rollers.


Set-up:

Even if you was to decide to doo your pre-turn on the live center, for set-up, I want to still doo a turn up at the spindle to size.
Then I handwheel my insert up to it, and then adjust my rolls to the turned diameter.



Tip:

Any allowances between your pre-turn and your head set diameter will have the unit producing an hourglass shape back and forth until it finds home.
This is prolly the biggest challenge regarding the rolls aft the insert design. But once you finally git it right - it should run 'till Tuesday.


'Nother Tip:

Take that head and squirell it away for JUST this job, or at least just this diameter so that you don't haft'a Richard with it again the next time.




edit:

Last 2 posts were not there when I started my reply.


----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

It does appear to be a well thought out tool, I am interested to know what they are worth new.
Once it is set up for this part it will go in the job box for this job, If I need another I will find another.

The rolls are after the insert, there is a lot of adjustment for that, perhaps .05, I have it backed off to where the insert is about .02 ahead of the rolls when cutting though that will change if I add a chamfer, depending on what a "good chamfer" is and in think about this, would a radius be better? perhaps 1/64" chamfer or radius? Before I read this I mounted it 90 degrees to your recommendation and did a test cut. The results were less than perfect but not horrible, the chips got out of the way a lot better than expected with the light cut.
While looking at the tool I notice a precision ground counterbore bore with a set screw in from the side and behind the rollers and am wondering if perhaps a bushing with .002 or so clearance to a finished OD goes in there to prevent the retract wobble?
The cutting insert swing has a lot of adjustment from about 1/8" in front of the rollers to just about no swing at all, How does a guy figure what that should be?
thanks for the tops
 
It sounds like your head has more features than I am used to, so I cannot answer your Q's, other than to say that my insert doesn't "pop" much at all.


--------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I can't see buying a new lathe for 500 pcs per year and I am defiantly not looking to expand or look for more work to feed such a machine though it is an interesting option of that type of machine I had never thought of. We are wanting to keep in house any work we can and we are almost there, I have this and some wooden parts to figure out then we will be quote unquote self sufficient. I have been wondering about the shavings, given my DOC I am expecting a birdnest though this machine has a lot of coolant pressure

Didnt know what type of machines you have but figured I’d mention it as a sub spindle lathe isn’t all that uncommon.

I think for aluminum you would be better off with a hss box tool. Or just grind an inert with a good positive rake and I had to actually just set up the coolant to try to let that big long chip get into the chip pan.

Depending on the tool you can run rollers on the finished diameter or on the bar diameter. Running on the finished diameter can give you a very nice burnished finish. But in aluminum this is unnecessary.

If your tool and tolerances allow it I would try to run on bar diameter. Will prevent some issues. But may cause others. Box tools are a lost art that the old school turret guys and screw machine guys only know.
 
Wrote that earlier forgot to hit post but saw some other stuff your answer to how much is a head new. About $2000. I have a tangi flow branded one.

I don’t think the other poster understood what I meant with the sub spindle lathe. But I do think you understood.
 
Wrote that earlier forgot to hit post but saw some other stuff your answer to how much is a head new. About $2000. I have a tangi flow branded one.

I don’t think the other poster understood what I meant with the sub spindle lathe. But I do think you understood.

You would think for that kind of money BOYAR SCHULTZ would return calls

I have a couple of basic 2 axis lathes and they have done all we need, we just need to nail down this silly part.
 
"Box tools are a lost art that the old school turret guys and screw machine guys only know."

I ran a W&S universal turret when I was a teen, but that's been a while and no box tools on it, sure could make some shavings though.

I'm old, perhaps a bit stubborn, and I don't like beat by my tools, hopefully that will count for something in the end.
 
You would think for that kind of money BOYAR SCHULTZ would return calls

I have a couple of basic 2 axis lathes and they have done all we need, we just need to nail down this silly part.

I think boyar Schultz was bought out by some big company and nobody really cares anymore. I may be wrong though.

My rollers are radiused on the corners

cc0c043389a56f64e253cc8dd6a8a197.jpg

e30cfca0614ed4969b878a8ad279295e.jpg
 
For Q's (or spare parts) directed to B/S, you may want to try some of the resellers of this brand.

This is basically a tool for Brown and Sharp's or Warner and Swasey's, and the biggest tooling source for Brownies is and has always been - AMSCO in Detroit, which is now a division of Champion in Wixom.

After that, I would try Detroit Automatic, or Shorty's Tooling. (both in Greater Detroit)


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Wrote that earlier forgot to hit post but saw some other stuff your answer to how much is a head new. About $2000. I have a tangi flow branded one.

I don’t think the other poster understood what I meant with the sub spindle lathe. But I do think you understood.


You are right, I did not read closely enough to your post. :o

I know of that process being done on Swiss lathes for turns that are longer than the Z1 stroke, but in that case - you are still drawing through the bushing.
Can't say that I have ever heard of anyone dooing that on a fixed headstock, b/c that would demand that you had your main collet snugged right up - as you said.
But you are right, that could work. Might get some lobing - depending on collet clearance, but .... yeah, tha'd be worth a try sometime if the job justified it!


--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
IDK that I've ever had an issue with chips?

I let the coolant blast through the shank fer all she's worth.
I don't use hoses on this tool.


---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 








 
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