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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    A thousand miles can lead so many ways.
    Just to know who is driving, what a help it would be.


    ------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Horse for the course but sometimes, you pick the horse and then pick the course.

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    I have the S500
    As long as it fits in your work envelope, I can't imagine anything easier/faster to set up. I say "imagine", because it's the only one I've used (Mach 3 doesn't count). I use CAM for everything. Configured post processor to output brother specific codes for surfacing vs roughing, accuracy modes etc. Drag and files via ftp. Have CAM templates for various operations/materials/tools. Setting tools with the blum single or tool or whole turret is a breeze. My Haimer is tool#1 (external work offset Configured).

    My fingers do the walking on the pendant to set G54. I'm so used to it I don't have to look at it anymore, rotating knobs etc. I suppose a renishaw probe could make that faster, just never felt the need for one.

    I rarely do more that a few parts at a time, constantly changing materials etc.
    I interpolate bearings bores a lot, and accuracy has alway been good for my needs.

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    I have a Speedio S700 with a 4th axis... and as much as I love my machine, it is not what I would buy if I was in a manual shop looking to branch out into other things and planning to buy the machine first and then seeing what work I could get for it.

    Not unless I knew I was going to wind up making small aluminum parts that could fit in the palm of my hand exclusively.

    I really dislike Haas machines but I would get a VF2, because you're going to have to learn the control as well as the machine. If I wanted to upgrade from a VF2 I would get an Okuma M560 because it will do everything well and is a beast of a machine.

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    Default Brother CNC mill for a job shop

    Well i absolutely love our s700x2 but I would not get it for anything but production. For example I had some parts that were essentially made from a 6” x4”x4” block of aluminum. I don’t think the brother would have. Been able to run the endmill with 4” reach to cut the profile all around

    I would run from a haas. I see too many horror stories from people on the forum and in my personal experience. while I haven’t had the best of luck with doosan if I was looking for a budget job shop cnc machine and it had to be new that’s what I would get. Or I hear great things about the okuma m560. I was not super impressed with mazaks new budget line. They also are more expensive for less options than the 3 brands mentioned above

    Now if it doesn’t have to be new there are tons more choices that are more affordable.
    Personally your shop sounds like prime picking for a fadal. Easy and cheap to repair. Reasonably solid machines. Have 10k spindle and 2 speed gearbox with much more torque than any of the cncs mentioned above. Now I hear the flames coming but it’s what I think suits your shop from how you described it. Doesn’t sound like you need an insanely fast production machine. But if you ever get a high qty job the brothers are small and you could probably junk your old Bridgeport and pop in a new brother. You can move the s700x2 with a pallet jack.


    (I apologize but I am making an assumption that you aren’t loaded and looking to blow a wad of cash on a high end machine) also btw i happen to have a fadal or 2 for sale. I’m looking to upgrade to a newer machine myself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wsurfer View Post
    I have the S500
    As long as it fits in your work envelope, I can't imagine anything easier/faster to set up.
    I will say I am very happy with my S500, it does a very good job for my prototyping stuff. No problem holding any accuracy I've asked for.

    If I could change one thing for speed of setup on one-off runs -- it would be a "gently conversational" probing interface. Editing program 719 or whatever is okay, but edit, saved programs, 720, enter, insert off, cursor over to X dimension, change, cursor to Y dimension, change, completion with saving, run, 720, cycle start is a little bit tedious. Definitely not as nice as probing, center of rectangle op, 50mm in X, 80mm in Y, -10mm in Z, go.

    But this is just me complaining, the mill runs great. And I totally acknowledge that this would not be useful for the vast, vast majority of Speedios in service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    If I could change one thing for speed of setup on one-off runs -- it would be a "gently conversational" probing interface. Editing program 719 or whatever is okay, but edit, saved programs, 720, enter, insert off, cursor over to X dimension, change, cursor to Y dimension, change, completion with saving, run, 720, cycle start is a little bit tedious. Definitely not as nice as probing, center of rectangle op, 50mm in X, 80mm in Y, -10mm in Z, go.
    Oddly, graphical probing does exist in the control, but I don't think anyone in the US has ever figured out how to set it up, or the nuts and bolts of how it works. For example, it has all the basic probe moves, but how do we tell it what we've set the Probe On/Off variable to?

    There are a few tricks to speeding up probing, especially if you have the Yamazen factory macros. A few tweaks to the 700 series programs, and create a couple of dimension based ones (one for .25" bores, one for .5", one for 1", etc). Use a variable in the code to have it set whatever the active work offset is instead of needing to manually change it. Etc Etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    I will say I am very happy with my S500, it does a very good job for my prototyping stuff. No problem holding any accuracy I've asked for.

    If I could change one thing for speed of setup on one-off runs -- it would be a "gently conversational" probing interface. Editing program 719 or whatever is okay, but edit, saved programs, 720, enter, insert off, cursor over to X dimension, change, cursor to Y dimension, change, completion with saving, run, 720, cycle start is a little bit tedious. Definitely not as nice as probing, center of rectangle op, 50mm in X, 80mm in Y, -10mm in Z, go.

    But this is just me complaining, the mill runs great. And I totally acknowledge that this would not be useful for the vast, vast majority of Speedios in service.

    Maybe a stupid question, since I've never even been in the same room as a Brother controller...

    But couldn't you write a smaller program that asks for these numbers, and have it pass them to the correct program as variables, and then call that program as a subprogram? Seems like it might be quicker?

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    If you guys are using 6 manual machines and a CNC bridgeport with mach3 then CNC certainly isnt your bread and butter right now.

    I agree with OX. In your case look for a machine just like he suggested. Something in a used 40 taper, 40x20, 4th axis and 8000 rpm spindle. That will increase your capability tremendously and will probably be a better match for a shop doing manual work right now. This will handle a wider range of parts, and probably be more forgiving as you get your feet wet in CNC. If you guys happen to get production work you can get a brother down the road. You can still do some production on this slower machine. Load it up and go run your manual machines for a half hour between cycles.

    Nobody mentioned Fadal??

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    If you guys are using 6 manual machines and a CNC bridgeport with mach3 then CNC certainly isnt your bread and butter right now.

    I agree with OX. In your case look for a machine just like he suggested. Something in a used 40 taper, 40x20, 4th axis and 8000 rpm spindle. That will increase your capability tremendously and will probably be a better match for a shop doing manual work right now. This will handle a wider range of parts, and probably be more forgiving as you get your feet wet in CNC. If you guys happen to get production work you can get a brother down the road. You can still do some production on this slower machine. Load it up and go run your manual machines for a half hour between cycles.

    Nobody mentioned Fadal??
    But this is a shop looking for a generational shift as well as a focus shift. Why say, the best answer is the most generic thing that is the hardest to make profit on? Yes, it can make more parts but it really can't do anything well. If you are changinfg the direction of the shop for future growth, than set a course that you can make money with.

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    ... if you happen to stumble on work that fits the fringe machine.

    Considering that the most likely work to stumble through the front door is common work, in low qtys, is best done on a common machine.

    For $20G or so a fella can git himself a good basic starter machine these days.

    I envision these guys most likely application is bolt circles and such that supports what they are already dooing.

    Who's bringing high volume alum parts to the shop that's niche is and has always been repair work?
    These guys are still in 1990.
    Their current portfolio is nowhere close to a niche machine - in any direction.
    Trying to launch them into the 2020's with a niche' machine will not likely doo them any favors.

    Get a generic and large enough machine to start with, expecting anything to come through the door.
    This doesn't need to be expensive.

    How much cycle time is saved on drilling a 2-off set of hubs with bolt circles @ 3/4-10 taps and 1" holes 4" through all around that the bestest and fastest machine on earth is going to make them $ and the generic won't?

    If they find that they need to move in a certain direction a few years from now, then they will have some direction at that point.

    5X?
    High Speed Vertical pallet changer?
    Boring Mill?
    Or maybe just another commodity machine?


    An example (and I don't mean this as a dig!) but look at the fancy Okuma that Charles got during the crash.
    That was more machine than he could justify.
    It did not run his parts any faster/better than a stripper commodity 2x lathe would have, and he was a CNC shop before hand too.

    Most shops will benefit from the most common equipment.
    To start outside the norm and hope to find uncommon jobs to fill it out of the blue is a very poor plan IM/HO.



    You didn't like my first post. You said that it was too 1985....

    So what part exactly doo you not agree with?


    40" ?
    Rigid tap? (yes, that would be expected on a brand new $100K machine, but it should be double checked if buying a $20K used machine)
    Through tool?
    4th axis?

    I really can't imagine what part of that equazsion you disagree with for this shop?

    ... other than you think that they should invest in something that they have no experience with, and with no connections to that side of the industry, b/c that is where the $ is?

    I've never known you to post such "salemanny" type replies before.
    This is not your MO.
    Are you OK?



    --------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Last edited by Ox; 08-27-2021 at 10:55 AM. Reason: Added

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    But couldn't you write a smaller program that asks for these numbers, and have it pass them to the correct program as variables, and then call that program as a subprogram? Seems like it might be quicker?
    The weird limitation we are working around is that the C-00 has a single-line MDI that cannot call a sub-program. The workaround Yamazen provides with their probing macro package is to include about 10 programs that are pre-configured with the probing macro calls, for the most common tasks. 701 is a probe hit and offset setting in X+, 701 is -X, 707 hits -Z, etc etc. By default, these programs are written to hit G54, but in about 3 minutes, you can have them modified to set whatever the active work offset it. Once you do, 90% of your probing becomes faster than any graphical setup I've seen on any control. You literally hand wheel the probe into position, call the program, hit cycle start and it is done. No picking through a menu, filling out any data, sending the results to the MDI, etc etc.

    If you want to probe a web or a bore or check dimensions, you set up a scratch program and use it like an MDI call. You do need to know the probing macro syntax, but it is very dead simple. To the point where if you can't pick it up in a couple of hours, you shouldn't be a machinist. I keep meaning to get around to building a cheat sheet you can pin to your machine...

    I was super mad at Brother for a while, since I like nice UIs for stuff. I thought the MDI limitation was stupid (which is still sorta is, but they have fixed it in the D-00), and I thought the lack of a nice intuitive probing interface was dumb. Now that I have had to work with machines that have the Renishaw GUI; I would much rather do things the Brother way. Yes, there is more of a learning curve, but it really isn't that steep. Ironically, because we had to work around the MDI limitation, what wound up happening was the development of a solution that is significantly faster than more "advanced" controls with dumb GUIs.

    Sorta like how Linux neckbeard types prefer the command line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    ... if you happen to stumble on work that fits the fringe machine.

    Considering that the most likely work to stumble through the front door is common work, in low qtys, is best done on a common machine.

    For $20G or so a fella can git himself a good basic starter machine these days.

    I envision these guys most likely application is bolt circles and such that supports what they are already dooing.

    Who's bringing high volume alum parts to the shop that's niche is and has always been repair work?
    These guys are still in 1990.
    Their current portfolio is nowhere close to a niche machine - in any direction.
    Trying to launch them into the 2020's with a niche' machine will not likely doo them any favors.

    Get a generic and large enough machine to start with, expecting anything to come through the door.
    This doesn't need to be expensive.

    How much cycle time is saved on drilling a 2-off set of hubs with 3/4-10 taps and 1" holes 4" through all around that the bestest and fastest machine on earth is going to make them $ and the generic won't?

    If they find that they need to move in a certain direction a few years from now, then they will have some direction at that point.

    5X?
    High Speed Vertical pallet changer?
    Boring Mill?
    Or maybe just another commodity machine?


    An example (and I don't mean this as a dig!) but look at the fancy Okuma that Charles got during the crash.
    That was more machine than he could justify.
    It did not run his parts any faster/better than a stripper commodity 2x lathe would have, and he was a CNC shop before hand too.

    Most shops will benefit from the most common equipment.
    To start outside the norm and hope to find uncommon jobs to fill it out of the blue is a poor choice of purchase IM/HO.



    You didn't like my first post. You said that it was too 1985....

    So what part exactly doo you not agree with?

    40" ?
    Rigid tap? (yes, that would be expected on a brand new $100K machine, but it should be double checked if buying a $20K used machine)
    Through tool?
    4th axis?

    I really can't imagine what part of that equazsion you disagree with for this shop?



    --------------
    You should make this a sticky.

    I suggested on another thread that the OP would be better off with a 4020, so BROTHERFRANK comes back with, "Brother makes a 4020". So I look it up, it has 11.8" travel in Z. I guess my point is I wonder if any of these Brother fanboys have ever had to start a shop, likely not knowing what's coming thru the door. How could a shop starting out find a machine with 11.8" in z usefull? it boggles the mind.

    A Fadal 4020 in great shape can be had for $10k or less, probably with tooling. Should be able to pay cash for that machine, so you don't have to make payments to a machine builder when you find the parts you are quoting are either to large or don't suit the whizz-bang nature of a Brother.

    Get going, and if you get parts consistantly that will be Brother suited, then get a Brother (or similar)

    ---------------------------------

    If I were to get a new machine it would be a Hardinge V1000, much more usefull in a jobshop environment than a Brother. I have a friend who has one, it's idled his 2 Fadals as it's thru put is so much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    But this is a shop looking for a generational shift as well as a focus shift. Why say, the best answer is the most generic thing that is the hardest to make profit on? Yes, it can make more parts but it really can't do anything well. If you are changinfg the direction of the shop for future growth, than set a course that you can make money with.
    I'm still with OX!
    Not to pile on...but they don't know what comes through the door. That's the way it goes on start up.
    You can aim at the moon, but you have to be able to then program your new machine to make rocket parts, and who will give them rocket parts work when it's their first machine?
    I'm all for gently gently...I think their best bet would probably be Prototraks at this stage...

    Edit: - to be fair, I love the Brothers.
    Never had one, but they are the best out there in that class.
    I had 2x second best (Robodrills) and 3x Feelers - which to be fair were better suited for me than the Robos (30 tools and 15k spindle).
    I would have had 3x Brothers, but i could have had 6x Feelers for the money.
    And I'm a pikey

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    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    I will say I am very happy with my S500, it does a very good job for my prototyping stuff. No problem holding any accuracy I've asked for.

    If I could change one thing for speed of setup on one-off runs -- it would be a "gently conversational" probing interface. Editing program 719 or whatever is okay, but edit, saved programs, 720, enter, insert off, cursor over to X dimension, change, cursor to Y dimension, change, completion with saving, run, 720, cycle start is a little bit tedious. Definitely not as nice as probing, center of rectangle op, 50mm in X, 80mm in Y, -10mm in Z, go.

    But this is just me complaining, the mill runs great. And I totally acknowledge that this would not be useful for the vast, vast majority of Speedios in service.
    I agree that editing isn't a strong suit of the control. A more user friendly interface would be nice to have. Hopefully they make some changes since they've really grown in popularity the last few years.

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    I have a Brother S500X and a Doosan DNM500.....................for general job shopping,1-100 parts, parts of all shapes sizes operations and material. And you don't know what will come in the door next?..................the Doosan would be my choice......................40x20x20 machine. Sure the Bro 1000 has close to the travel, the OP will be dumpin' some serious cash on a new endeavor in his manual shop.(well north of $100k)

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    I realize this site has quite the circle jerk of Brother fans. I'm sure they are a fine machine for what they are suited for, but it's annoying peoples willingness to push them on people in poor fit situations. I would have much more respect for a salesman that realizes their product doesn't suit me instead of just trying to make a sale.

    The work I do is probably as "job shop" as it gets, typically low volume, very diverse industries and part sizes and every material imaginable.

    We have a couple super minis and I while I realize these are not the same quality of a Brother they are of the same theory and short comings (previously also had Kitamura BT30 spark changer and it was the same story.) We bought the machines for a couple year production run which they kicked ass at. Now that job is over it's cherry picking to keep them fed or using work-arounds to get jobs done in them. They won't run a 3" shell through anything harder than aluminum and they won't drive a 3/4-10 tap through anything harder than plastic.

    There's not really a shortage of general VMC work and there's money to be made.

    I know Brothers are good machines and would love to have one, but if I had to run a shop with ONE VMC? I wouldn't take a Brother over a 4020 CT40 machine, NOT EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    ... if you happen to stumble on work that fits the fringe machine.

    Considering that the most likely work to stumble through the front door is common work, in low qtys, is best done on a common machine.

    For $20G or so a fella can git himself a good basic starter machine these days.

    I envision these guys most likely application is bolt circles and such that supports what they are already dooing.

    Who's bringing high volume alum parts to the shop that's niche is and has always been repair work?
    These guys are still in 1990.
    Their current portfolio is nowhere close to a niche machine - in any direction.
    Trying to launch them into the 2020's with a niche' machine will not likely doo them any favors.

    Get a generic and large enough machine to start with, expecting anything to come through the door.
    This doesn't need to be expensive.

    How much cycle time is saved on drilling a 2-off set of hubs with bolt circles @ 3/4-10 taps and 1" holes 4" through all around that the bestest and fastest machine on earth is going to make them $ and the generic won't?

    If they find that they need to move in a certain direction a few years from now, then they will have some direction at that point.

    5X?
    High Speed Vertical pallet changer?
    Boring Mill?
    Or maybe just another commodity machine?


    An example (and I don't mean this as a dig!) but look at the fancy Okuma that Charles got during the crash.
    That was more machine than he could justify.
    It did not run his parts any faster/better than a stripper commodity 2x lathe would have, and he was a CNC shop before hand too.

    Most shops will benefit from the most common equipment.
    To start outside the norm and hope to find uncommon jobs to fill it out of the blue is a very poor plan IM/HO.



    You didn't like my first post. You said that it was too 1985....

    So what part exactly doo you not agree with?


    40" ?
    Rigid tap? (yes, that would be expected on a brand new $100K machine, but it should be double checked if buying a $20K used machine)
    Through tool?
    4th axis?

    I really can't imagine what part of that equazsion you disagree with for this shop?

    ... other than you think that they should invest in something that they have no experience with, and with no connections to that side of the industry, b/c that is where the $ is?

    I've never known you to post such "salemanny" type replies before.
    This is not your MO.
    Are you OK?



    --------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    I would never make any of those assumptions. I also would never build a business today with the future in mind to meet those requirements. A $100,000 costs $2,000 per month. You should not be buying a machine if you don't plan on billing at least that amount on the machine. Everything after that is better with a machine that can do parts faster. Yes it is risk versus reward but if you are in business for yourself, risk is part of the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    I realize this site has quite the circle jerk of Brother fans. I'm sure they are a fine machine for what they are suited for, but it's annoying peoples willingness to push them on people in poor fit situations. I would have much more respect for a salesman that realizes they're product doesn't suit me instead of just trying to make a sale.

    The work I do is probably as "job shop" as it gets, typically low volume, very diverse industries and part sizes and every material imaginable.

    We have a couple super minis and I while I realize these are not the same quality of a Brother they are of the same theory and short comings (previously also had Kitamura BT30 spark changer and it was the same story.) We bought the machines for a couple year production run which they kicked ass at. Now that job is over it's cherry picking to keep them fed or using work-arounds to get jobs done in them. They won't run a 3" shell through anything harder than aluminum and they won't drive a 3/4-10 tap through anything harder than plastic.

    There's not really a shortage of general VMC work and there's money to be made.

    I know Brothers are good machines and would love to have one, but if I had to run a shop with ONE VMC? I wouldn't take a Brother over a 4020 CT40 machine, NOT EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!
    I would agree with you except I have sold Brothers to dozens of small shops. If your business plan is to take any work someone will give you than that is what you will do. Anything. Bidding against everyone else who wants to do anything. If you want to make 40 inch parts, than buy the 40 inch machine but realize, as soon as size gets up there, there are shops with 50 taper 50 horse power machines that maybe can cut better, faster and cheaper than you. The OP started this thread with the notion from somewhere that a Brother might be a good fit for him. That notion came from somewhere. Big parts, big inspection, big parts handeling. You need to right size machines not necessarily be open to anything possible. I used to own a Swiss shop. Biggest diameter was under an inch. Focus allows controlled growth. Lacking focus is usually troublesome.
    Last edited by 2outof3; 08-28-2021 at 09:57 AM.

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    I don't think broad capabilities is lacking focus. My goal is to be able to quote as much as I can and sub out as little as possible, I don't think that's a bad position to be in.

    I've done a bit of Swiss work in my life too, and made lots of money doing it. I also wouldn't recommend a shop to buy a swiss that has never even owned a 2X chucker. I don't like the idea of betting the farm on a niche when you've never even gotten your feet wet on the basics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    NOT EVEN IF IT WAS FREE!
    I call bullshit.


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