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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    I realize there are a lot of Brother fan-boys here on PM (and I'm one of them...lol), but just what exactly is it about a Brother VMC that makes them so special?

    Is it just the speed?

    If so, why aren't the other machine tool builders copying Brother's machine models?

    Let's compare the Haas 40-taper VMC sold in the same price range as the typical Brother VMC:

    1.) The accuracy specs are basically the same.

    After all, well-made Japanese guideways, ballscrews, servos and servo drives --- properly sized, properly assembled on a reasonably-accurate frame, and properly tuned, will produce similar accuracy results. (Haas uses Yaskawa drives and servos, and Japanese/German linear guides, AFAIK).

    2.) The Haas will have larger components: guideways, ballscrews, thrust bearings, servo motors, drives, wiring/breakers/contactors, spindle housing/bearings/motor/drive, castings, axis-travels.

    And speaking of travels, Brothers have some funky stuff going on in Z...requiring risers and other shenanigans to reach the part with a reasonable length tool.

    3.) The rigidity between a 40-taper machine is going to be superior to a 30-taper machine.

    Unless the builder of the 30-taper machine goes to herculean efforts would it be close, even then a 30-taper and all it's related smaller components are only going so far along the "rigidity scale".

    4.) Brother has a user-friendly control, but so does Haas.

    5.) Brother's are insanely reliable, but overall Haas aren't bad.

    As with all internet forums, we read mostly about machines with problems, it distorts the overall picture of a machine's reliability. The unique Haas business model of HFO's provide timely support and service, and are generally rated high by their customers.

    6.) Brothers are cheap to run electricity-wise, but in the grander scheme of things, electricity is cheap.

    So, is speed everything, especially for the user new to the world of VMC's?

    ToolCat
    For us it was the speed. Not only of the table but also the delivery. Also the spindle. We got a 27k spindle. ( I pmed brother frank about a machine Saturday by Monday a check was sent Wednesday a machine was on the floor and making chips Thursday).

    I would say this brother actually meet its accuracy specs. Last time I checked most haas donít have real accuracy specs. I was looking for numbers on table flatness etc and they just donít have it. So itís like a fadals claimed accuracy itís just marketing as the best achievable not reality. The brother actually meets specs.

    I as said before do not think the brother is appropriate for a job shop so I really have nothing to say about the odd configurations.
    Since we got the brother it has only ever run one part. And it will continue to do so for years to come.

    Pretty sad but I would say a brother is about as rigid as a haas vf2. Atleast the ones Iíve run. But I havenít really put our brother to the test as like I said it only runs one part. The haas only needed one part to fail the testÖ

    Iím personally not a big fan of the haas control: itís a bit too many buttons for me but I know lots of people love it. I know they also love it when haas sunsets their control and the new controls sometimes just crash the machine.

    Brother control is acceptable but I absolutely hate the fact that they couldnít spare the few dollars to put an mpg hand wheel on it. So itís not great in my opinion either.

    I canít comment on reliability too far. But from what I read brother tends to be more reliable. I do know the service guy here for brother is absolutely amazing. We run the brother in an environment that it really needed a graphite package but it was not available so we will see how long it lasts.

    Also for us speed was everything and thatís why we got a brother itís not for a job shop itís for production.

    Took a part that was 4 minutes on a vmc and itís now down to 30 seconds on the brother. We run 6 at a time for total cycle time of 3min while the vmc was doing one at a time. But the brother can still knock out just one in under 45seconds.

    I donít mean to try to be argumentative but this is all my opinions so people can see another side of the story.

    Heck I recommend the guy get a fadal so trust me Iím not trying to push a brother on him.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    I realize there are a lot of Brother fan-boys here on PM (and I'm one of them...lol), but just what exactly is it about a Brother VMC that makes them so special?

    Is it just the speed?

    If so, why aren't the other machine tool builders copying Brother's machine models?

    Let's compare the Haas 40-taper VMC sold in the same price range as the typical Brother VMC:

    1.) The accuracy specs are basically the same.

    After all, well-made Japanese guideways, ballscrews, servos and servo drives --- properly sized, properly assembled on a reasonably-accurate frame, and properly tuned, will produce similar accuracy results. (Haas uses Yaskawa drives and servos, and Japanese/German linear guides, AFAIK).

    2.) The Haas will have larger components: guideways, ballscrews, thrust bearings, servo motors, drives, wiring/breakers/contactors, spindle housing/bearings/motor/drive, castings, axis-travels.

    And speaking of travels, Brothers have some funky stuff going on in Z...requiring risers and other shenanigans to reach the part with a reasonable length tool.

    3.) The rigidity between a 40-taper machine is going to be superior to a 30-taper machine.

    Unless the builder of the 30-taper machine goes to herculean efforts would it be close, even then a 30-taper and all it's related smaller components are only going so far along the "rigidity scale".

    4.) Brother has a user-friendly control, but so does Haas.

    5.) Brother's are insanely reliable, but overall Haas aren't bad.

    As with all internet forums, we read mostly about machines with problems, it distorts the overall picture of a machine's reliability. The unique Haas business model of HFO's provide timely support and service, and are generally rated high by their customers.

    6.) Brothers are cheap to run electricity-wise, but in the grander scheme of things, electricity is cheap.

    So, is speed everything, especially for the user new to the world of VMC's?

    ToolCat
    After 35 plus years and a couiple hundred thousand units, Brother builds a machine right sized for most smaller to mid size part production. They have a great recipe. Well tested in harsh environments and solid. The speed comes from acc/dec and speed of processing that information. Everything just works and keeps working. It is why companies that have to make parts day in and day out holding size buy them. But that helps small shops just as well. Yes, speed but also consisitancy. For roughly a 100k you get a nice Japanes quality machines that will make most parts we see. Not all but most. The other thing is the R series machines with the pallet changer. No one does that better than Brother and that is a big part of their success. As a small manufacturer or job shop, you can buy a $75k S500 and then later add a R650 with pallet changers and rotaries on either side. It just seems to be, lot's of companies see the value of that approach. I have stated this before, the vast majority of VMC's built in Japan are 30 taper. The changes in processing cutting in mills has changed over the years. Ninja instead of sumo works in many, many instances. BBT and hogh torque spindles have filled voids that teh machines would have struggled in when they were just drill and tap machines.

    I think that is why the trend has changed a bit.

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    Best analogy I can come up with on the why.

    The same reason, Taxi Cabs are no longer Crowne Vics. Taxi companies found it is bette to run smaller more reliable vehicles like a COrrolla or Prius instead of continuing to run the paid for Crowne Vic. They make more profit by changing to the smaller more reliable vehicles that take less energy and can move around town a bit quicker. Allowing more fares per day at less cost.

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    To me a good job shop machine has to be at least 40 x 20, 50 tool magazine,probing thru spindle coolant and cat 40 taper. I could be wrong but thatís what I would want.
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    I have a couple 1991 Fadal 4020's, and old Makino RMC, couple of BP's, couple of lathes, couple of hones and a sinker. Everything I have was made in the last century.

    I do work for a company that has plants all across the US. I'm now sole source for all the add-ons fixtures/assemblies for their machine.

    I've competed against larger, better more modern equipped shops. Me and my crappy machines have out lasted them all. a few are still going. A lot have shut down. I'm sure they were all impressed by the BS propated by the Okuma/Brother/Haas etc salesman who spouted the "newer, faster, more rigid, 1.7 second tool change time etc, this is what you need to compete"BS

    If you were crap at running a business with Fadals (for instance), buying Brothers isn't going to make you Warren Buffet, your still going to be crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    I have a couple 1991 Fadal 4020's, and old Makino RMC, couple of BP's, couple of lathes, couple of hones and a sinker. Everything I have was made in the last century.

    I do work for a company that has plants all across the US. I'm now sole source for all the add-ons fixtures/assemblies for their machine.

    I've competed against larger, better more modern equipped shops. Me and my crappy machines have out lasted them all. a few are still going. A lot have shut down. I'm sure they were all impressed by the BS propated by the Okuma/Brother/Haas etc salesman who spouted the "newer, faster, more rigid, 1.7 second tool change time etc, this is what you need to compete"BS

    If you were crap at running a business with Fadals (for instance), buying Brothers isn't going to make you Warren Buffet, your still going to be crap.
    Why do all the guys that don't have Brother machines have to be insulting? You used the term "BS." Another guy used the term "circle jerk."
    I've haven't seen anyone make BS claims for the Brother machines. I know what they can do. I know what Haas and Robo can do.
    I agree that if one isn't good a business, the machine won't make a difference. A guy above posted that his cycle times went way down using a Brother. I would call that good business.
    I don't understand why people can't be dispassionate and be objective.

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    As for the older controllers from haas...if you don't have 10k in your reserves you may want to rethink your business strategies. It's not a new thing anymore. Haas did what they did for whatever dumb reason, it's over being a hot button issue.

    If I was to start a shop I would most likely go new on my vmc, financing and a warranty all make sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Why do all the guys that don't have Brother machines have to be insulting? You used the term "BS." Another guy used the term "circle jerk."
    I've haven't seen anyone make BS claims for the Brother machines. I know what they can do. I know what Haas and Robo can do.
    I agree that if one isn't good a business, the machine won't make a difference. A guy above posted that his cycle times went way down using a Brother. I would call that good business.
    I don't understand why people can't be dispassionate and be objective.
    For someone with an established business and/or product line that requires many many pieces a brother is a great fit. Even someone who has a lot of business and the faster machine times keep customers happy.. Someone starting out not knowing what the hell might come through the door might would be better off with a lower priced type of machine. Knowing your customer base and their needs is a real ace in the hole when it comes to machine decisions.

    Whats the point of taking on a huge payment for something that might be sitting a lot for a time being...I mean, I guess that's the risk of business though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    As for the older controllers from haas...if you don't have 10k in your reserves
    Try $20Kish.........................Haas gave a giant middle finger to all owners of older Gen machines. And they did it on purpose.....................It will always be a hot button issue to the tens of thousands of owners of older machines. Haas Automation's business model is ONLY about selling and servicing new shiny machines. They are D-bags............................

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Try $20Kish.........................Haas gave a giant middle finger to all owners of older Gen machines. And they did it on purpose.....................
    Even still, 20k should be no issue if you are doing it right. But I don't disagree that it was a shit move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Why do all the guys that don't have Brother machines have to be insulting? You used the term "BS." Another guy used the term "circle jerk."
    I've haven't seen anyone make BS claims for the Brother machines. I know what they can do. I know what Haas and Robo can do.
    I agree that if one isn't good a business, the machine won't make a difference. A guy above posted that his cycle times went way down using a Brother. I would call that good business.
    I don't understand why people can't be dispassionate and be objective.
    As I previously listed my old plant list...All progs were 'grammed so they could run on either the #40 machines or the Robos, and then latterly the Feelers.
    Every job that was moved onto the #30 machines were 30% faster at least.
    BUT.....it isn't just about cycle time.
    It's how good your engineering is - how well is your cam system configured with a tool library, and if your tool library is pre-set or do you have to hunt for a 1/2" cutter etc etc.
    Let alone whether you can leave vices or rotary etc left set on the table, or for the smaller machines do you have to keep removing and then for the next job put it back etc.
    Bigger tables can leave rotary and collet head and a couple of vices set...
    So it's all horses for courses IMHO - it all depends how "good" you are in all the disciplines, as well as what work you're doing (materials, tolerances, and quantities).

    After all that said....as a jobbing shop that I was, I think there is a need for #40 + #30 machines.
    But number 1, is don't spend what you don't have.
    The art of a business, is not running out of money...

    I bet the OP is loving it sat on his sofa eating

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    As for the older controllers from haas...if you don't have 10k in your reserves you may want to rethink your business strategies. It's not a new thing anymore. Haas did what they did for whatever dumb reason, it's over being a hot button issue.

    If I was to start a shop I would most likely go new on my vmc, financing and a warranty all make sense.
    I think the Machmotion kit is about $10k.
    That gives Mach4 control plus some nice user friendly looking conversational features.
    Just an option to keep an old machine running if it is mechanically sound.

    For the Fadals....this looks a nice upgrade...
    527F CNC Control - Calmotion

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    I realize there are a lot of Brother fan-boys here on PM (and I'm one of them...lol), but just what exactly is it about a Brother VMC that makes them so special?

    Is it just the speed?

    If so, why aren't the other machine tool builders copying Brother's machine models?

    Let's compare the Haas 40-taper VMC sold in the same price range as the typical Brother VMC:

    1.) The accuracy specs are basically the same.

    After all, well-made Japanese guideways, ballscrews, servos and servo drives --- properly sized, properly assembled on a reasonably-accurate frame, and properly tuned, will produce similar accuracy results. (Haas uses Yaskawa drives and servos, and Japanese/German linear guides, AFAIK).

    2.) The Haas will have larger components: guideways, ballscrews, thrust bearings, servo motors, drives, wiring/breakers/contactors, spindle housing/bearings/motor/drive, castings, axis-travels.

    And speaking of travels, Brothers have some funky stuff going on in Z...requiring risers and other shenanigans to reach the part with a reasonable length tool.

    3.) The rigidity between a 40-taper machine is going to be superior to a 30-taper machine.

    Unless the builder of the 30-taper machine goes to herculean efforts would it be close, even then a 30-taper and all it's related smaller components are only going so far along the "rigidity scale".

    4.) Brother has a user-friendly control, but so does Haas.

    5.) Brother's are insanely reliable, but overall Haas aren't bad.

    As with all internet forums, we read mostly about machines with problems, it distorts the overall picture of a machine's reliability. The unique Haas business model of HFO's provide timely support and service, and are generally rated high by their customers.

    6.) Brothers are cheap to run electricity-wise, but in the grander scheme of things, electricity is cheap.

    So, is speed everything, especially for the user new to the world of VMC's?

    ToolCat
    Speed, reliability, user friendliness, and value. We're somewhere between job shop and production; the machines make parts for our own product line, and a few other companies products; so a known limited mix that I get to design or influence. Mostly aluminum, some stainless and plastics, all of it fits comfortably in a 20" X mill.

    Vs Haas: I'm not a Haas basher, they were very much on the table. But for us Brother was not only the better value, it was also the less expensive option. You need an SS to be comparable, and they are more than a base S500 that is still going to outrun it. The unusual Z travel isn't a problem (FOR US, YMMV), vises are bolted direct to the table.

    Vs older 40x20: The last mill we had before going 30 taper was a ten year old Sharp SV-2412. That's not a 40x20, but our parts fit, so we were essentially using what the majority here recommend. I don't have hard numbers on everything, but my guess would be the Sharp took roughly twice as long on most parts. That's a combination of spindle speed, tool change, and rapids. We ran both machines for about a year before getting a second Brother, and I fully expected to want to run some parts on the 40 taper, but it just didn't happen; now we're 30 taper only.

    But we do a lot of things besides machining (welding, vacuum forming, injection molding, assembly, etc), so straight spindle time isn't the limiting factor the way it might for a job shop. It also took something like twice as long in man hours for the Sharp vs Brother (and labor is always a limiting factor). This is in no way a fair fight- manual tool offsets vs tool setter, DNC off a card vs ethernet drag and drop, Fanuc Oi Mate vs Brother C00. But thats the point, the old cheap 40x20's that one side is recommending usually don't have those features. And the end result is that it just takes me way less time to get parts done on the Brother.

    Last but not least, old machines have quirks. The sensor on the Sharp that could tell the quill was in the tool change position would act up sometimes, just pause and wait for you to hit cycle start and then keep going. And if you tried to find the root problem it would decide to work and foil your troubleshooting. It's hard to put a dollar figure on the little annoyances, but they don't help productivity.

    My $2.00 worth, your mileage WILL vary. And I'm not going to insult anyone because they are happy with the 1998 VF-3, the mill that works for THEIR parts in THEIR shop. I'm not going to tell anyone to throw out their Fadal. I'll keep my speed, you keep your travel, everyone is happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianagos View Post
    Can you imagine trying to mill with the side of a 5/8 endmill 1Ē deep with a finish pass of like .01Ē and getting .0015Ē taper on the part (thatís both sides combined) that to me was ridiculous.
    How did you manage to trash a machine that badly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Why do all the guys that don't have Brother machines have to be insulting? You used the term "BS." Another guy used the term "circle jerk."
    I've haven't seen anyone make BS claims for the Brother machines. I know what they can do. I know what Haas and Robo can do.
    I agree that if one isn't good a business, the machine won't make a difference. A guy above posted that his cycle times went way down using a Brother. I would call that good business.
    I don't understand why people can't be dispassionate and be objective.
    Mike,

    You were mostly a Haas shop. What are your typical parts made of and how do you attack them? I think some think, .375 EM are the only options for using a Brother when milling. Can you help with this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    How did you manage to trash a machine that badly?
    Not sure the haas techs had checked it out and it was ďin spec thoughĒ.

    Pretty much the worst of ever seen on a cnc mill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Mike,

    You were mostly a Haas shop. What are your typical parts made of and how do you attack them? I think some think, .375 EM are the only options for using a Brother when milling. Can you help with this?
    I won't speak for Mike, buy I regularly use a 5/8" necked end mill sticking out 3.3" in aluminum on a standard BT30 s500.
    Maybe I don't know what I don't know, but no one told me I couldn't 😄. So far,so good. No banana for scale, but the spur drive hubs on left of cart are 7"OD x 3.2" high. 5/8" end mill to pocket square hole. 20210222_165641.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Mike,

    You were mostly a Haas shop. What are your typical parts made of and how do you attack them? I think some think, .375 EM are the only options for using a Brother when milling. Can you help with this?
    Current jobs are 17-4 H900, StressProof, 416, 6061, and 7075. I use high speed paths whenever possible. I find tool life is good, and cycle times are lower using this type of programming. My cycle times are lower on every job than they were on the Haas mills I had. I use mostly 1/2 and 3/8 end mills, occasionally 5/8, and one job I use a 3/4 end mill 3" LOC for some careful profiling of 6061. I did start out working in small production and job shops, and worked in a decent sized aerospace job shop, where a lot of machines were 50 taper. When I started my shop I had a cnc knee mill, did job shop work, and built up from there. I only take limited job shop work these days.
    My advice - have reliable equipment, choose the right work, find a way to get it done and make a buck. Reliable equipment and good support is very big deal to me.
    My first Brother was a R450 hi-torque dual contact, and I still had the VF-2. After I learned how to use the Brother (wasn't long), it was hard to wait until I could upgrade everything. It was a long path that led me to Brother machines, but I'm happy I got there.
    Good luck to the OP. Hope this helps a little, even though you said you decided against a Brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    Why do all the guys that don't have Brother machines have to be insulting? You used the term "BS." Another guy used the term "circle jerk."
    I've haven't seen anyone make BS claims for the Brother machines. I know what they can do. I know what Haas and Robo can do.
    I agree that if one isn't good a business, the machine won't make a difference. A guy above posted that his cycle times went way down using a Brother. I would call that good business.
    I don't understand why people can't be dispassionate and be objective.
    If you are insulted and offended by the terms "BS" and "circle jerk" I find it hard to believe you have ever set foot in a machine shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    If you are insulted and offended by the terms "BS" and "circle jerk" I find it hard to believe you have ever set foot in a machine shop.
    Did he say he was offended by the terms?


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