Brother Speedio, Haas DM/DT Series and Fanuc Robo Drills - Compare and contrast!
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    Default Brother Speedio, Haas DM/DT Series and Fanuc Robo Drills - Compare and contrast!

    Hello there!

    Long story short looking to upgrade my small desktop style CNC machine to do job shop style work, and mold work. The machine would be in my garage.

    I've looked into all the Brother Speedios, Haas DM and DT machines and a bit into Robo Drills. All of these machines I can power and fit into my garage so that is not the problem.

    I would be buying new and I wanted to hear from anyone who has actually ran/own these machines what they think of them. I've ran plenty of HAAS machines before and Fanuc lathes before. So brothers control is the only odd one out.

    Price vs what you really get. 30 taper vs a 40 taper haas DM1 or DM2.

    Rigidity of the machines compared.

    Anything and everything is welcomed!

    Thanks!

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    Where in WA? I installed a Speedio S700X1 2 years ago and would be happy to share experiences, and let you have a look if you’re close to Duvall.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    You mention mold work.
    Does this mold work entail a lot of 3D surface profiling?
    If so, I wouldn't have any of your current choices on the list for 3D profiling.
    How big of parts do you work on?

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    Doosan just came out with a 40 taper DT machine, you might also check them out.

    DT Series : Doosan Machine Tools America

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    Quote Originally Posted by lastrada View Post
    Doosan just came out with a 40 taper DT machine, you might also check them out.

    DT Series : Doosan Machine Tools America
    You do not want that machine if you want to do any kind of serious milling in a machine with that small of a footprint. Take a look at the new DNM4000. For a smaller footprint machine, try this. DNM4000-Doosan Machine Tools America.

    I work for Doosan and posted this to show there is a better option than a drill/tap machine. 12K spindle is the same one in our larger VMC's

    Paul

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    Speedio.

    I've climbed all over the latest Robodrills, and everything about the Speedio is smarter/better built. The way covers, the enclosure, the control cabinet, the onboard PLC, the control, the coolant system.

    Yamazen is a far better company to deal with than Methods. Methods is like any dealer, hit-or-miss. Yamazen is one of the few companies in this industry that has overwhelmingly positive service reviews. Andy (2of3) and BROTHERFRANK are members here and answer questions because they get how productive these machines are for the kind of users on PM. I won't talk too much smack about Methods other than to say my service experiences with them on the older Robodrill were severely lackluster, and I've seen signs of serious lack of attention-to-detail in their work for larger scale installs- a general "meh" attitude.

    Finally, the Speedio is quite a bit quicker than the Robodrills. I always assumed these machines would be on-par with each other speed wise. In a back-to-back test I've run on my Speedio versus a new Robodrill B5, we found the Speedio was about 8 seconds faster (42 vs 50 seconds, across 6 tool changes). We ran that same test with various tuning and tricks to try to close the gap figuring that such a margin indicated something was not right, but nope... The Speedio always beat the Robodrill by a minimum of 8 seconds.

    The DT2 vs. Speedio debate is a more interesting question. You'll pay more for the Speedio, but if you take a glance at each machine, it's obvious where the extra money goes in the Speedio. Now how important to you is the increased reliability, big speed increases, and higher precision of a Speedio? Those are all fantastic to have, but it isn't a free lunch because you will pay about 20% more for all that over a Haas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Speedio.

    I've climbed all over the latest Robodrills, and everything about the Speedio is smarter/better built. The way covers, the enclosure, the control cabinet, the onboard PLC, the control, the coolant system.

    Yamazen is a far better company to deal with than Methods. Methods is like any dealer, hit-or-miss. Yamazen is one of the few companies in this industry that has overwhelmingly positive service reviews. Andy (2of3) and BROTHERFRANK are members here and answer questions because they get how productive these machines are for the kind of users on PM. I won't talk too much smack about Methods other than to say my service experiences with them on the older Robodrill were severely lackluster, and I've seen signs of serious lack of attention-to-detail in their work for larger scale installs- a general "meh" attitude.

    Finally, the Speedio is quite a bit quicker than the Robodrills. I always assumed these machines would be on-par with each other speed wise. In a back-to-back test I've run on my Speedio versus a new Robodrill B5, we found the Speedio was about 8 seconds faster (42 vs 50 seconds, across 6 tool changes). We ran that same test with various tuning and tricks to try to close the gap figuring that such a margin indicated something was not right, but nope... The Speedio always beat the Robodrill by a minimum of 8 seconds.

    The DT2 vs. Speedio debate is a more interesting question. You'll pay more for the Speedio, but if you take a glance at each machine, it's obvious where the extra money goes in the Speedio. Now how important to you is the increased reliability, big speed increases, and higher precision of a Speedio? Those are all fantastic to have, but it isn't a free lunch because you will pay about 20% more for all that over a Haas.
    How does it do with 3d surfacing aluminium? I am in the same boat as the OP (though machine is not going into a garage so space is not really an issue). Looking for a machine to make aluminium test molds. These are for small parts (large mold is about 5 inches squared, most much smaller), almost everything is 3d surfaces and we of course would like to get as good surface finish as possible. Lots of tiny end mills to make small corner radius. On paper the Brother looks good but reading here it sounds like 3d surfacing might not be its strong point?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwnFinn View Post
    How does it do with 3d surfacing aluminium? I am in the same boat as the OP (though machine is not going into a garage so space is not really an issue). Looking for a machine to make aluminium test molds. These are for small parts (large mold is about 5 inches squared, most much smaller), almost everything is 3d surfaces and we of course would like to get as good surface finish as possible. Lots of tiny end mills to make small corner radius. On paper the Brother looks good but reading here it sounds like 3d surfacing might not be its strong point?.
    3D surfacing is great:

    Speedio High Speed - YouTube

    Here are some sample pics of surfacing work done locally:

    1205.jpg

    2012-07-24-10.35.39.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    The DT2 vs. Speedio debate is a more interesting question. You'll pay more for the Speedio, but if you take a glance at each machine, it's obvious where the extra money goes in the Speedio. Now how important to you is the increased reliability, big speed increases, and higher precision of a Speedio? Those are all fantastic to have, but it isn't a free lunch because you will pay about 20% more for all that over a Haas.
    Are you saying you can get an optioned Speedio for sub $100k? I thought they were more than that.

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    For general purpose work, if looking at a Haas mill I honestly think you would be better served with something other than a DT or DM. Yes they are fast which is appealing but it comes at the cost of being highly specialized for a certain application; they're meant for secondary operations or simplistic workpieces that don't include much if any bulk roughing. Their advantage is the small work envelope and fast spindle, not in power or versatility. So while you can technically do a lot of stand-alone work with a DT or DM, you'll always need to back off quite a bit compared to most other Haas mills.

    Compared to a DT or DM, I would look at a Minimill or the faster SMM if you can swing it. My reasoning is because, even though the DT and DM have larger travel, they both have a very extreme tool length limitation of less than 7 inches (because longer tools will physically collide with the door lining). For most toolholders you will not be able to stick out any tool further than about 5 inches. It may not be something you may encounter often, but it could be the make-or-break factor for being able to fabricate a workpiece if it's your only machine.

    However, if you beef options into a MM or SMM, the price very quickly approaches that of a VF-series which would DRASTICALLY outperform a Minimill. So the size consideration becomes something you need to very carefully consider, whether it's the biggest issue at play for your new equipment. Remember the TM and MM machines can run off single phase, but SMM and DT/DM and anything else require three-phase (or a converter).

    To outright answer the question of DT versus DM, you gain tool rigidity with the larger 40 taper, but the spindle itself is identical and very weak compared to a VF. In my opinion the rigidity is wasted unless you NEED to use larger tools. You still won't be able to hog material with a DM, though, and still have the same tool length limitation as with the DT. Like I said, it's perhaps more specialized than it initially appears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert123 View Post
    Are you saying you can get an optioned Speedio for sub $100k? I thought they were more than that.
    Absolutely. Are you in Arkansas? I believe Yamazen in Dallas supports your area. You should check with them.

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    You can get an optioned Speedio for WAY less than $100k, depending on which unit and what options you want.

    Brothers are fabulous for what they are. They are nice and small, they're easy to move around, they don't take a ton of power. The control is easy peasy.

    They absolutely aren't mold machines. I've done tons of surfacing on them, but they're only okay at it. They're machines for doing fast production. If you're doing onesy twosy work you're spending a lot of money on capabilities that you don't need, and you'll miss the extra rigidity if you need to grunt through some mold steel.

    Assuming you have a pretty big garage, for mold work with similar travels get an Okuma Genos M460V. They routinely have sales advertising them for $100k, and that IS a good machine for moldmaking.

    A Brother is for when you need one hundred thousand of a part, not one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert123 View Post
    Are you saying you can get an optioned Speedio for sub $100k? I thought they were more than that.
    Easily.

    They are definitely more expensive than the Haas, but a well optioned 3 axis S700 will be well under $100k. Add a 4th and you'll be just over.

    The overpriced machine on this list is the Robodrill. The 10k RPM ones are about 12% more than 10k Speedios, and then they jump up to the 24k RPM machines which start at around $98k list. They have no "middle" RPM spindle option, which is stupid because it's the most flexible without getting into the complexity of the 24k+ stuff. That's for a standard, new B5, which is demonstrably slower than the Speedio. The new Robodrill Advanced is a 20-25% price increase over the standard Robodrill, and nothing about it on paper says it will beat the Speedio speed wise (.1 sec slower on the tool change, fewer Gs on the axes).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comatose View Post
    Assuming you have a pretty big garage, for mold work with similar travels get an Okuma Genos M460V. They routinely have sales advertising them for $100k, and that IS a good machine for moldmaking.

    A Brother is for when you need one hundred thousand of a part, not one.
    Obviously, I think if someone asked for a "mold" machine, a Genos is the base entry into a world of Makino F5s and Yasdas and Hermles; a conversation the Brothers shouldn't even be a part of.... but change the material to 6061, and tell me you wanna run tiny tools, and space/budget might be a concern? IDK- a 27k Speedio will probably wipe the floor with the Genos for less money.

    I also think we're finding out that there have been some shenanigans with how Brother has been releasing Speedios from the factory with High Accuracy Mode B parameters. There is a LOT more under the covers than these machines have been doing since their release vis-a-vis surfacing, but that's a matter for another thread as explorations are active.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Absolutely. Are you in Arkansas? I believe Yamazen in Dallas supports your area. You should check with them.
    We are not in the market presently, but I'll definitely keep that in mind for the future. We have a Haas DT-1 now, and I could see getting a DT-2 for the extra X travel. The S700X1 looks to be about the same size. I saw no mention of voltage requirements in the specs. I know they use something like 220V in Japan, but can you get Brothers set up for 480V?

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    The DT2 vs. Speedio debate is a more interesting question. You'll pay more for the Speedio, but if you take a glance at each machine, it's obvious where the extra money goes in the Speedio. Now how important to you is the increased reliability, big speed increases, and higher precision of a Speedio? Those are all fantastic to have, but it isn't a free lunch because you will pay about 20% more for all that over a Haas.
    After reading the specs on the Brother, I'm curious what you mean by big speed increases. I see 20% slower XY rapids, 8% slower Z rapids, and slightly slower cut speeds. Tool change time is faster at about 1.4 seconds compared to about 1.8 seconds for the Haas. I would go for the 16k spindle on a Brother while the Haas has only 15k.

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    Any of these machines will be a whole new world compared to a tabletop mill. I only have experience with the Haas DT-1. On the Haas, I don't see any reason to go with a 40-taper machine unless you already have another 40-taper machine and want to share tool holders. They recommend using 1/2" and smaller end mills. It's no problem to run bigger, but you may become limited by machine power with larger sizes.

    I wouldn't consider a Robodrill just because of the higher price. In my mind, it largely comes down to a lower price for the Haas, more user friendly control on the Haas, and higher reliability on the Brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Obviously, I think if someone asked for a "mold" machine, a Genos is the base entry into a world of Makino F5s and Yasdas and Hermles; a conversation the Brothers shouldn't even be a part of.... but change the material to 6061, and tell me you wanna run tiny tools, and space/budget might be a concern? IDK- a 27k Speedio will probably wipe the floor with the Genos for less money.

    I also think we're finding out that there have been some shenanigans with how Brother has been releasing Speedios from the factory with High Accuracy Mode B parameters. There is a LOT more under the covers than these machines have been doing since their release vis-a-vis surfacing, but that's a matter for another thread as explorations are active.
    I don't disagree, I have a number of Brothers and only one Okuma (and that is a lathe.) For my own work (reducing
    aluminum extrusions to fancier extrusions one can mount electronics to) the Brother wins hands down. But the OP was asking about "Mold and job shop work" and this isn't really the best class of machine for that.

    I like the Brothers, but not as much as I like the right tool for the right job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robert123 View Post
    After reading the specs on the Brother, I'm curious what you mean by big speed increases. I see 20% slower XY rapids, 8% slower Z rapids, and slightly slower cut speeds. Tool change time is faster at about 1.4 seconds compared to about 1.8 seconds for the Haas. I would go for the 16k spindle on a Brother while the Haas has only 15k.
    A Haas can't really hold a shape at the max programmable cutting rate, and it can't really get to the rapid speed on small moves. Acceleration is MUCH more important than speed when it comes to small parts. The Brother rapids at 2.2/1.3g. Is there a spec for the Haas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Comatose View Post
    A Haas can't really hold a shape at the max programmable cutting rate, and it can't really get to the rapid speed on small moves. Acceleration is MUCH more important than speed when it comes to small parts. The Brother rapids at 2.2/1.3g. Is there a spec for the Haas?
    The only spec I see is 2550 lb max thrust for XY motors and 4200 lb for Z. Maybe a comparison could be made with this, but it'll take more thinking than I can do at this hour.


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