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  1. #61
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    Regarding Yamazen's prices being high I haven't seen it. My old machine is 20 years with 72,000 power on hours, and was in very rough condition when I got it. I've put new Y axis linear bearings, Y axis ball screw, Y axis servo motor, servo amp, new spindle, Y axis thrust bearing, and Firmware upgrade. I think I have in the neighborhood of $12k in all this. I never heard of any other cnc machine where these parts were cheaper. Furthermore all still available and in stock. I can do the work myself which is a very big deal here in the sticks. A buddy just found out the spindle is bad in his Okuma Horizontal. $40k for a new one. $18k for a rebuilt one with the old one returned. Glad I don't have that bill.

    Also, just checked on CNC specialty store. The generic MPG's they sell are $700-$900. Or you can buy a chicom one on ebay for a few hundered. My old machine didn't come with one. I bought a beat up one from a Brother on ebay. And had to fix it because it had a bad rotary switch.

    I looked the switches I bought for my old mpg to fix it were Grahill rotary switches from digikey.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    Regarding Yamazen's prices being high I haven't seen it. My old machine is 20 years with 72,000 power on hours, and was in very rough condition when I got it. I've put new Y axis linear bearings, Y axis ball screw, Y axis servo motor, servo amp, new spindle, Y axis thrust bearing, and Firmware upgrade. I think I have in the neighborhood of $12k in all this. I never heard of any other cnc machine where these parts were cheaper. Furthermore all still available and in stock. I can do the work myself which is a very big deal here in the sticks. A buddy just found out the spindle is bad in his Okuma Horizontal. $40k for a new one. $18k for a rebuilt one with the old one returned. Glad I don't have that bill.

    Also, just checked on CNC specialty store. The generic MPG's they sell are $700-$900. Or you can buy a chicom one on ebay for a few hundered. My old machine didn't come with one. I bought a beat up one from a Brother on ebay. And had to fix it because it had a bad rotary switch.

    I looked the switches I bought for my old mpg to fix it were Grahill rotary switches from digikey.
    Your buddy needs to talk to Setco about rebuilding his spindle. Just a happy customer with both the quality and price. By the way Yamazen's prices don't seem out of line compared to my experience with Enshu and Kitamura. Some things are high but many things are in line with reality when I have shopped around. It must say something if all three have similar pricing for parts, maybe that's just the cost of keeping them in stock and providing the service?

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    Hmm, I don't think my pendant (MPG) has a spot for it. My main panel does have a spot.

    My MPG looks like so (or pretty close):

    Attachment 315723
    Spindle override switch goes on the control panel. What machine do you have?

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    My spindle override is on the main panel.

    One use I've found for it: I make a family of parts in different non-ferrous materials, always starting with aluminum and usually eventually going to brass and then copper in low volumes. If I'm just doing a test article, I'll sometimes just pop feed to 70% and spindle to 80%. Slightly lower SFM and slightly smaller chip for sightly harder to mill NF materials. I've done the same running test parts in 7075 instead of the 6063 I usually work with.

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Deal View Post
    Regarding Yamazen's prices being high I haven't seen it. My old machine is 20 years with 72,000 power on hours, and was in very rough condition when I got it. I've put new Y axis linear bearings, Y axis ball screw, Y axis servo motor, servo amp, new spindle, Y axis thrust bearing, and Firmware upgrade. I think I have in the neighborhood of $12k in all this. I never heard of any other cnc machine where these parts were cheaper. Furthermore all still available and in stock. I can do the work myself which is a very big deal here in the sticks. A buddy just found out the spindle is bad in his Okuma Horizontal. $40k for a new one. $18k for a rebuilt one with the old one returned. Glad I don't have that bill.
    In red ^^^^ This is HUGE! My local ellison (our HFO around here) doesn't even stock a freaking spindle motor for a 10 year old VF2ss any more!
    I figured there were literally hundreds of these machines in a 100 mile radius from ellison. I can rattle off about 30 of them right off the top of my head.
    Had this conversation with a tech recently. He said my estimation of "hundreds" is grossly low. "try thousands just in Phoenix". And, no spindle motor on the shelf

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    When I bought my Speedio in 2016 I opted to have the spindle over ride installed.
    While the guy was installing the machine, he popped off the front panel, installed the rotary switch, plugged it in somewhere logical and screwed the panel back on.

    I think I have only used it less than a dozen times over 4 years.

    I would have to say that Yamazen buys zero machines with the spindle over ride but probably buys enough kits for 15% of the machines installed.

    How's my guess Andy?

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    I have been involved in about 600-800 Brother installations and have installed Spindle Override maybe ten times. Possibly because I personally don't see the value in it. I am starting to rethink that though. People who use it are very passionate about it it seems. RPM plays a part in harmonics for sure (chatter? lower rpm and/or increase feed). I have always just started with feed override then jumped into the program at the machine and changed the S if necessary. Then I would alter my CAM program if necessary. Many people prefer to not make edits at the machine and do edits in CAM, repost, and re-load program. Neither way is wrong, just personal preference as is the spindle override.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Spindle override switch goes on the control panel. What machine do you have?
    S500X1. It's on the main panel. Would be nice, but I'm not gonna throw a grand at it anytime soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    I have always just started with feed override then jumped into the program at the machine and changed the S if necessary. Then I would alter my CAM program if necessary. Many people prefer to not make edits at the machine and do edits in CAM, repost, and re-load program.
    I've never entered Edit mode on my machine, ever. I like a full keyboard and mouse. I hate smartphones too I'm probably one of the rare people who would really like it.

    Feed rarely gets it for me. It's always drop the RPM, how much is what takes time. I recently ran a job that was a fairly tall part so 3/8 and 1/2 reduced shank tool sticking out over 3". Lots of material to remove, so it would help save some time to be able to find the sweet spot on the fly. As it is, I go back and forth a couple times and find something workable and not terribly slow, but I don't iterate until it's optimized for sure.

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  11. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    I've never entered Edit mode on my machine, ever. I like a full keyboard and mouse. I hate smartphones too I'm probably one of the rare people who would really like it.

    Feed rarely gets it for me. It's always drop the RPM, how much is what takes time. I recently ran a job that was a fairly tall part so 3/8 and 1/2 reduced shank tool sticking out over 3". Lots of material to remove, so it would help save some time to be able to find the sweet spot on the fly. As it is, I go back and forth a couple times and find something workable and not terribly slow, but I don't iterate until it's optimized for sure.
    Agreed! The problem with feed is it seems mentally counter intuitive. Because, usually you need to feed faster to get out of the harmonic mode.
    But, when that end-mill is screaming at you, instinct tells you "slow it down you idiot!". Which is the exact opposite of what you need to do.
    I find myself using both at the same time. But, I always start with RPM, not feed.

    To go off on a tangent as almost all these threads do:
    It is interesting how different people use entirely different work-flows to accomplish the same thing. And, how that workflow can affect something like a machine option, e.g. spindle override.

    I personally do not save any NC files. Yes I do manual edits, both at the desk, and at the machine control. LOTS of them.
    But, once that job/set-up is done running? That program gets deleted, and it is gone forever. Any time I am making serious edits at the machine I take a scratch pad with me, and go back and update the CAM ASAP. I also do very little single piece flow. So, most of the time my programs are pretty long. Lets say for just one complex profile rough/finish operation That roughs/finishes with the same tool, with different rough/finish speeds, feeds, and plunge feeds, across 8 identical parts, that is a long time standing at the control editing. Especially if you cant just "find & replace" because other tools are using identical parameters. But, in CAM (at least the one I use) it is literally 5 minutes tops. Plus you then have a master reference. NC files don't make a good reference in my mind. I want the CAM! Not the code.

    Now, I understand there are places that wont/cant do it this way. But, I am not one of those places. And, this is how I like to do it. And, I use spindle override all the time.

    I know a guy (worked for him years ago) that saved ALL his programs on the machine control. No back-up, nothing. He hired a new guy that said he knew the control (early Okuma OSP), and FNG deleted all this guys programs it had taken him years and years to compose. He had and used Mastercam to program all this stuff. And still had all the CAM files. But, the manual edits in these programs were so abundant, and elaborate that he could not reproduce his parts with freshly posted code. No way! It almost put him out of business (he makes press-together 2-cycle crankshafts). It was devastating for him. And, it was also the very beginning of my programming experience.

    Sorry, that got drawn out and off topic. But, Frank brought up a good point. There are a million ways to skin a cat. And, just as many cats.

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  13. #70
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    Spindle override in my opinion is a very important tool to have on your machine. For shops that do a lot of 1 off parts especially, not all programs are going to be correct, programmers make mistakes and its much easier to reduce or increase your feeds and speeds right at the control manually, so your not running back and forth to your computer or programmer changing feeds and speeds. However keep in mind if buying Brother on Brother machines it is an option and does not come standard with the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post

    I personally do not save any NC files. Yes I do manual edits, both at the desk, and at the machine control. LOTS of them.
    But, once that job/set-up is done running? That program gets deleted, and it is gone forever.
    Do you rarely get repeat jobs? Of course all of us are different. Since I started job shopping a dozen years ago I would say on a wild guess 50%+ of my jobs are yearly or more often repeats since I got them. Keeping the old programs are a valuable tool, especially when customers are happy with the initial price and send a reorder P.O. without asking for a requote, as the years go by one can dial in the job and make them faster and faster while still getting the same price for them. Of course degradation of a trusted tooling item and material can render the old program and set up sheet to need time consuming modifications. Often I think increased efficiency and amortizing the original programming costs into the per unit price can be a win, win. Customer gets a steady price that doesn't get hit with inflationary price increases while my increased efficiency adds to my profit margin.

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    My machine has spindle over ride and I use it probably once a month. I am also doing programming and setup work at another shop and their machine does not have it and I have found myself wanting to more than once. If I can get it on a machine, I'd prefer to have it there.

  16. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Do you rarely get repeat jobs? Of course all of us are different. Since I started job shopping a dozen years ago I would say on a wild guess 50%+ of my jobs are yearly or more often repeats since I got them. Keeping the old programs are a valuable tool, especially when customers are happy with the initial price and send a reorder P.O. without asking for a requote, as the years go by one can dial in the job and make them faster and faster while still getting the same price for them. Of course degradation of a trusted tooling item and material can render the old program and set up sheet to need time consuming modifications. Often I think increased efficiency and amortizing the original programming costs into the per unit price can be a win, win. Customer gets a steady price that doesn't get hit with inflationary price increases while my increased efficiency adds to my profit margin.
    Almost ALL my work is repeat. I run my shop EXACTLY as you just described. But, I save no NC files.
    I have enough shit to keep track of, and organize. Everything I need to know about any part I have ever ran is right there in the CAM file.
    That way there is a maximum of three files to save for any given part. Print PDF, Solid model, CAM file. That is it. Old print/model REVs are deleted.
    This minimizes potential mistakes. It simplifies data storage. And, allows total process freedom. I am in a constant state of process improvement.
    So much so that old NC files are worthless to me. I would be posting new code anyway. And, it only takes a few seconds to post code. So, why save it?
    Tooling, fixtures, entire operations, even posts themselves are constantly changing in the name of efficiency. For the exact reason you mention:
    I'm trying to make money without raising prices.

  17. #74
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    I agree Wheelie. All my speedio programs are fresh coded from CAM system and installed. If it needs editing, I edit at the computer in the office so that this time and next time and the time after that there is no difference.
    Every program I run is programm number 2000. Every fixture program I run is program #1234.

    The ONLY time I leave a program in the machine is on my old Fadal. And that is just a couple of master programs that have variables to run variations of a part family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houndogforever View Post
    I agree Wheelie. All my speedio programs are fresh coded from CAM system and installed. If it needs editing, I edit at the computer in the office so that this time and next time and the time after that there is no difference.
    Every program I run is programm number 2000. Every fixture program I run is program #1234.

    The ONLY time I leave a program in the machine is on my old Fadal. And that is just a couple of master programs that have variables to run variations of a part family.
    Nice! LOL. My default numbers on the job-shop stuff are O00010 for part programs, and O00017 for jaw/fixture programs.
    I've been doing that so long I don't even remember how I ended up @ 17 for jaws?

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    I have the Brother Handy pulsar MPG, according to Andy I'm one of a few with that one and one day one of the switches popped apart from coolant getting into it. I cleaned it up and CA glued it back together. This was a few years has worked perfect ever since. I probably should move it somewhere other than right next to the door. Gets covered in coolant when blowing off parts.

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    I bought the MPG and the spindle over ride.

    I use both on a daily basis.

    99% of my jobs do not repeat.

    The vast majority of my jobs are 1 pc. If for some reason I get a harmonic issue, it could very reasonably scrap an $800 piece of steel. ($800 is material cost... not the finished part)

    A couple weeks ago, I had to put a $4000 assembly in the machine, pick up off a delicate and awkward surface, and try to skim a few thousandths off. I started to get some harmonic vibration that if it resulted in chatter would have scrapped the two parts of the assembly I was machining.

    While it was a kick in the nuts to pay for those two options, they have been well worth the investment.

    Any of you that have bought a Brother also FULL WELL know you didn't pay full list price. I know I didn't. I still do not know if Andy is the one to thank, but I won't miss an opportunity to say:

    THANK YOU

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  22. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I bought the MPG and the spindle over ride.

    I use both on a daily basis.

    99% of my jobs do not repeat.

    The vast majority of my jobs are 1 pc. If for some reason I get a harmonic issue, it could very reasonably scrap an $800 piece of steel. ($800 is material cost... not the finished part)

    A couple weeks ago, I had to put a $4000 assembly in the machine, pick up off a delicate and awkward surface, and try to skim a few thousandths off. I started to get some harmonic vibration that if it resulted in chatter would have scrapped the two parts of the assembly I was machining.

    While it was a kick in the nuts to pay for those two options, they have been well worth the investment.

    Any of you that have bought a Brother also FULL WELL know you didn't pay full list price. I know I didn't. I still do not know if Andy is the one to thank, but I won't miss an opportunity to say:

    THANK YOU
    What a nice thought. Thank you.

    Andy

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    When I bought my first Brother machine, I thought I would miss the spindle over-ride switch. I've been able to get by without it. It would be easier for those few times the speed needs a little playing with to kill a previously unsuspected chatter/harmonic issue, but I never really had a problem living without it.
    I really really really wish it was higher on the panel of the C00 control.
    I really really really need to hand the MPG higher and out of the way. One of my former "helpers" managed to hit one of the knobs with a cart, slightly damaging just the plastic knob. This thread is a good reminder for me to get that done.
    While stuff like the mpg can seem expensive, if one looks at everything the Brother provides overall, they are great. I'm in agreement with some of you above.
    Dealing with Yamazen is better than dealing with any other machine dealer for me, might be due to the crew in my area? I know owning Brother machines has made my life a lot easier and less stressful. IMHO they are the best in their class.

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