Brother Speedio s700x2 16k RPM with or without Big Plus?
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    Default Brother Speedio s700x2 16k RPM with or without Big Plus?

    Hi guys. I am in process of buying S700x2 brand new with T200A 4th axis. I have read numerous speedio threads which made me arrive at the decision. Only info I couldn’t find and it costs too much is spindle upgrade to BigPlus. It’s a $11000 upgrade. Is it worth it for 16K RPM spindle. It’s expensive on its own but there is air assisted wash which makes it even costlier.

    FYI, I will be machining aluminium and brass (not that other metals are off list completely) for my first couple of products (in counts of 500ish). Since it is not something I can easily upgrade in future, IMO, I want to be on safe side.

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    What size cutters primarily? How far will you attempt to reach out and what will your max side wall height be? I've done a lot without big plus. One of my clients was machining a bore in an aluminum casting with a 3/4" end mill hanging out about 7". Sounded good. I said "good thing you have big plus" he said "that's a regular BT30, I didn't have a Big Plus holder handy". I don't recommend this though!

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    Who told you it wasn't easy to upgrade later?

    My understanding is the dual contact is a dealer-installed option on all 16k spindles, so no matter what you're looking at a few hours of tech time and likely the same upgrade cost down the line. I don't think it is that big of a deal for them to field retrofit it.

    That said, you can do a lot without dual contact. You just have to watch tool diameter and stickout.

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    Maybe I don't know what we're missing, but so far the standard BT-30 has been fine. I've successfully snapped some tools and ripped parts out of fixtures without harming the taper, so there's that... But our parts are right in Speedio land, no huge stickouts required.

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    FWIW, I do some 3.2" deep pockets in 6061 with a 5/8" em. Nothing super aggressive, but no issues so far. Standard 10k spindle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    What size cutters primarily? How far will you attempt to reach out and what will your max side wall height be? I've done a lot without big plus. One of my clients was machining a bore in an aluminum casting with a 3/4" end mill hanging out about 7". Sounded good. I said "good thing you have big plus" he said "that's a regular BT30, I didn't have a Big Plus holder handy". I don't recommend this though!

    Do BigPlus spindles have the same drawbar tension as standard? I thought they had a fair bit more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    What size cutters primarily? How far will you attempt to reach out and what will your max side wall height be? I've done a lot without big plus. One of my clients was machining a bore in an aluminum casting with a 3/4" end mill hanging out about 7". Sounded good. I said "good thing you have big plus" he said "that's a regular BT30, I didn't have a Big Plus holder handy". I don't recommend this though!
    one of my parts (if I do it without using 4th axis) needs 2-1/4” long mills, 3/8 dia or bigger for outer profiling. Tool holders I am thinking of buying are Maritool BT30 shrink fit, 2.25” to 3” gage length. Not sure about future parts. Max tool length recommended in the specs is 9” and dia 110mm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Who told you it wasn't easy to upgrade later?

    My understanding is the dual contact is a dealer-installed option on all 16k spindles, so no matter what you're looking at a few hours of tech time and likely the same upgrade cost down the line. I don't think it is that big of a deal for them to field retrofit it.

    That said, you can do a lot without dual contact. You just have to watch tool diameter and stickout.

    No one yet since I didn’t ask, but I will check with the sales guy tomorrow. I am thinking big plus taper is built into the shaft so upgrading means disassembling the spindle or something complex which is uneconomical.

    I just don’t want to slow down cuts if my parts need long tools. I am spending upwards of 120K on Speedio for speed. Machine spec says that it can handle 9” max long and 4.5” max dia tool. Not sure if theses specs are for BBT30 or BT30 and for what combination of length and dia. I wanted to hear if someone have experience with both (especially on speedio) and can tell me BBT30 is way better than BT30 and given the opportunity, they will always opt for Big Plus.

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    Those max numbers you are posting are just what can accommodate in the toolchanger without crunching something. They don’t mean that you can effectively cut with a tool of those dimensions.

    If you are concerned about the 3/8” x 2.25 in a 3” gage length holder, you’re going to break the tool before having an issue with a standard BT30 let alone a BBT30. I recently found out the hard way on my BT30 taper Mori Seiki.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sids1990 View Post
    No one yet since I didn’t ask, but I will check with the sales guy tomorrow. I am thinking big plus taper is built into the shaft so upgrading means disassembling the spindle or something complex which is uneconomical.

    I just don’t want to slow down cuts if my parts need long tools. I am spending upwards of 120K on Speedio for speed. Machine spec says that it can handle 9” max long and 4.5” max dia tool. Not sure if theses specs are for BBT30 or BT30 and for what combination of length and dia. I wanted to hear if someone have experience with both (especially on speedio) and can tell me BBT30 is way better than BT30 and given the opportunity, they will always opt for Big Plus.
    As noted above, those are max numbers for the tool changer. No way you can use a tool that fills that envelope and expect it to live. Pay a lot of attention to what BrotherFrank says.

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    Yeah allowable stickouts have a lot to do with tool geometry, too. You may have problems with a face mill but no issues with a high feed. I personally had issues with a standard 16k spindle running 1/2" tools more than 1.75" deep before I started to run into issues with chatter and such. If I used a stub flute and stepped down (less flute engagement) I had no more issues with chatter or with taper from cutter deflection. Switching to a different tool or even the same cutter edge geometry with a different helix angle changed that.

    My advice is work with the dealer's apps engineers and some tooling guys - get them to fight over who supplies your tools. Maybe even make the dealer run a demonstration on your part. They should have guys on staff for this sort of thing, and it is very common to require test cuts prior to purchase or machine acceptance in the industry.

    These are super capable machines, but you need to know how to approach running them. Get it right and you'll be printing money. Get it wrong and you'll never trust a small spindle again LOL.

    BTW, the entire spindle on a Speedio can be replaced in the field in about four hours, and I recall the whole job (including a 10k high torque spindle) was about $6500 here. I am really surprised that is such an expensive option.
    Last edited by Rick Finsta; 06-01-2021 at 07:47 AM. Reason: EDIT: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Those max numbers you are posting are just what can accommodate in the toolchanger without crunching something. They don’t mean that you can effectively cut with a tool of those dimensions.

    If you are concerned about the 3/8” x 2.25 in a 3” gage length holder, you’re going to break the tool before having an issue with a standard BT30 let alone a BBT30. I recently found out the hard way on my BT30 taper Mori Seiki.
    oh. ok.

    I don't know why the machine vendors sneak these numbers which don't mean much. Why would I want to grab a 4.5" cutter which is 9" long in ATC unit if the machine shakes itself to death when using it.

    Let's say I used 3/4" did tool 2.5" long in tool holder with shortest gage length possible. What I am milling is outer profile of the part so cutter dia doesn't matter, but length does. How does BBT30 compare with BT30 in this senerio given I am producing 500 parts per setup as fast and efficiently possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    BTW, the entire spindle on a Speedio can be replaced in the field in about four hours, and I recall the whole job (including a 10k high torque spindle) was about $6500 here. I am really surprised that is such an expensive option.
    Canadians pay markup on markup for Brothers. It needs to stop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Yeah allowable stickouts have a lot to do with tool geometry, too. You may have problems with a face mill but no issues with a high feed. I personally had issues with a standard 16k spindle running 1/2" tools more than 1.75" deep before I started to run into issues with chatter and such. If I used a stub flute and stepped down (less flute engagement) I had no more issues with chatter or with taper from cutter deflection. Switching to a different tool or even the same cutter edge geometry with a different helix angle changed that.
    thanks for your input.

    My advice is work with the dealer's apps engineers and some tooling guys - get them to fight over who supplies your tools. Maybe even make the dealer run a demonstration on your part. They should have guys on staff for this sort of thing, and it is very common to require test cuts prior to purchase or machine acceptance in the industry.
    Our distributor here don't have any demo machine to show me let alone machine my part on it. I will get in touch with the application guy though, to iron these issues beforehand. So far I have been talking to sales guy alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enginuity View Post
    Canadians pay markup on markup for Brothers. It needs to stop.

    yup. That is why I am not going with half the stuff I originally wanted after getting official quote from the distributor.

    e.g. I was definitely going to go with chip conveyor and was debating on 4th axis. Numbers came in, chip conveyor was $5000 more than the T200A trunion.

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    Dual contact BT30 will give you better z-axis repeatability, finer finishes, slightly to considerable better tool life ( depends on size of tool). Also you will be able to mill deeper pockets or features and high metal removal rates. But anyone giving you a hard number is lying. You just can't quantify it. Yes dual contact is better. How much, depends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sids1990 View Post
    oh. ok.

    I don't know why the machine vendors sneak these numbers which don't mean much. Why would I want to grab a 4.5" cutter which is 9" long in ATC unit if the machine shakes itself to death when using it.
    ........
    Those numbers mean everything. The machine builder is giving you an envelope to work with. You could run a 4" facemill on a short facemill holder. You could also run a 9" long drilling tool assembly where the drill size was within the power capability of the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Those numbers mean everything. The machine builder is giving you an envelope to work with. You could run a 4" facemill on a short facemill holder. You could also run a 9" long drilling tool assembly where the drill size was within the power capability of the machine.
    ok. makes sense. I didn't know (still don't) what combination of tool length and dia is max (and how much having big plus affect that). I guess you know the limitations once you start using the machine and then you can dial thing up or down depending on the feedback you are getting from the process. I am trying to understand the limitations and capabilities of the machine as much as possible before buying it, to avoid any surprises later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Dual contact BT30 will give you better z-axis repeatability, finer finishes, slightly to considerable better tool life ( depends on size of tool). Also you will be able to mill deeper pockets or features and high metal removal rates. But anyone giving you a hard number is lying. You just can't quantify it. Yes dual contact is better. How much, depends.

    That is what my understanding was. I know it's better but can't seem to find out how much. lol

    I saw some Big Kaiser videos and they were clearly showing how much having Big Plus on same spindle, same tool, same tool holder and same parameters makes a lot of difference. Depth of cut and feed with Big Plus was double than that of non Big Plus. But again, it's coming from the company who owns the license to Big Plus.

    Here is a short version of the video:
    https://youtu.be/6yXm1wAjJ-Q

    Here is the full video:
    https://youtu.be/HuKG7tpRSfQ


    It seems like the community is not too crazy about Big Plus on speedio.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sids1990 View Post

    Let's say I used 3/4" did tool 2.5" long in tool holder with shortest gage length possible. What I am milling is outer profile of the part so cutter dia doesn't matter, but length does.
    Diameter does matter. If you look at the cutting forces the machine is dealing with, you have an axial 'vector' (length) and a radial vector (cutter dia.or distance from spindle centerline). Think of a short hand wrench versus a 2' long breaker bar. The longer tools are acting like a breaker bar on the machine/spindle. As stated earlier, cutting forces of a drill, reamer. tap or high feed mill are essentially vertical so those tools can be longer safely.
    Question, why would you use a $200 3/4 end mill instead of a $50 1/2" end mill? Speedio masters have learned the secret that smaller is better. There is a current thread about tooling secret weapons. Tools for Speedios are discussed quite a bit. As Frank Mari stated, there are many factors to successful machining. One thing I look for in end mills is lower helix angle. A 45 degree tool tries to pull itself out of the spindle harder than a 35 degree tool... Big Plus does have more drawbar force than BT, but there are many other factors involved. The cost of the option on a Brother includes the special pressurized, filtered coolant spindle wash system that cleans the spindle taper and face contact area for the BBT system.
    I applaud you for doing your due diligence. Many Speedio users (and BT30) here that can give you real world feedback. Congrats on the new machine in your near future. You will be very happy with a Brother. It is very common for the Brother machines to exceed owners expectations and we hear people say "I/we should have done this sooner" very frequently too.


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