Brother Speedio s700x2 16k RPM with or without Big Plus? - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't think the Haas toolchange is slow by any means, no it's not brother or robo fast, but you really gotta be squeezing things if the extra 2-3 seconds is gonna affect your margins. And the rapids are 1400ipm now, not 1k, and again, not 2200....

    (cue someone to do some math and show you are savings hours a week or whatever) but I would guess that is probably only a handful of people that NEED to have every second out of the part.
    What is a Haas chip to chip tool change time? You are saying it is 4-5 seconds here, which sounds too fast to me. Say 7 tool changes in 2 minutes so that would be 14-21 seconds per part. If the Haas takes 3 seconds longer per tool change in a 7 hour day that is 73.5 minutes longer, just in tool changes. Keep in mind the Brother will make many parts twice as fast as the Haas since it is faster at everything, not just tool changes. It also uses 1/4 of the electricity per hour, or 1/8 per part. All these little things really add up, if you take the time to add them up. I have several parts that take 7 tools and are under 1 minute per part so the difference can be even bigger.

    As far as two Haas vs one Brother I am pretty confident that in my shop the one Brother would produce more parts per hour, and around 1/15 the cost to operate if you consider shop space, maintaining the shop temp, compressed air, etc. All those things cost money and do add up, so add the money saved to the money made by the Brother and it looks even better.

    This is all looking at it through my lens where I just do production of parts that don't exceed 1/2"x3"x8".

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by sids1990 View Post

    Base 16K S700X2 21 tools is 105K. S500 is not that different. May be 2-3K cheaper.
    ??? S500 is more like 30K cheaper

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wsurfer View Post
    ??? S500 is more like 30K cheaper

    In Canada?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutiny View Post
    Speedios have an excellent wash down system and excellent chip evacuation to the back. I've never once in the last year of heavy material removal had to stop to clean out chips. We do it at the end of the day to keep things clean but you absolutely don't need an auger system or anything.
    This hasn't been our experience at all when we run one of our aluminum production jobs.
    The volume of chips is simply too much for it to handle. And it gets into our coolant tank at times too.
    We've tried everything short of buying the top of the line conveyor. But that won't solve the mountains of chips inside the machine. So I guess you could say that the Brother removes too much material

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I don't think the Haas toolchange is slow by any means, no it's not brother or robo fast, but you really gotta be squeezing things if the extra 2-3 seconds is gonna affect your margins. And the rapids are 1400ipm now, not 1k, and again, not 2200....

    (cue someone to do some math and show you are savings hours a week or whatever) but I would guess that is probably only a handful of people that NEED to have every second out of the part.
    It isn't just the tool change Mike. Although it is one of the biggest contributing factors. It is the entire process. Just like a GD&T tolerance stack up.
    .001" here, .0025" there, next thing you know your off .022" way over there! The Speedios are simply amazing when it comes to process speed.
    I own one of the best examples I have seen: haas VF3 with a pallet-changer making 10 finished parts per complete cycle.
    Brother R650 again pallet changer making 10 finished parts per complete cycle.
    Same parts, same tools, same process, same speeds/feeds. Everything between the two completely identical, except the machines.
    Throughput in the Brother is double the haas! DOUBLE

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    The toolchange on my 2015 Haas SS is pretty quick, it spends far more time retracting and then approaching the part. Staging the tool is key. Newer machines have servo ATC's instead of Geneva mechanisms, so staging becomes less important.

    Some examples here:

    Save Time on Your Haas Mill by Pre-Staging Tools! – Haas Automation Tip of the Day - YouTube

    I'm sure other machines are faster, and if you're fighting for tenths of a second like Frank that can make a world of difference, but for most applications it's probably not that important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    The toolchange on my 2015 Haas SS is pretty quick, it spends far more time retracting and then approaching the part. Staging the tool is key. Newer machines have servo ATC's instead of Geneva mechanisms, so staging becomes less important.

    Some examples here:

    Save Time on Your Haas Mill by Pre-Staging Tools! – Haas Automation Tip of the Day - YouTube

    I'm sure other machines are faster, and if you're fighting for tenths of a second like Frank that can make a world of difference, but for most applications it's probably not that important.

    What's pretty quick? Or haven't you measured it. Mine is 4.1 seconds with a prestaged tool, and it is servo driven, and 20 years old. The literature says 2.5 seconds, which would be accurate if it would orient the spindle while moving to the TC position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    servo driven
    Speaking of servo driven, I used to run cnc lathes for years, they were old and slow pigs.
    A couple of years ago I was helping one of our guys on our Mori lathe and I was single blocking a program and they have servo driven turrets.
    I about shit myself how fast they were! I was not expecting that speed of indexing lol.


    /hijack off

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    Speaking of servo driven, I used to run cnc lathes for years, they were old and slow pigs.
    A couple of years ago I was helping one of our guys on our Mori lathe and I was single blocking a program and they have servo driven turrets.
    I about shit myself how fast they were! I was not expecting that speed of indexing lol.


    /hijack off
    The first time I saw a bigger mill, I don't remember if they were verticals or horizontals, with 3,500 and 4,000 ipm rapids really spooked me too. Man those things were impressive!!! Linear motors on all axis, I wonder what the power draw was? This was around the mid 1990s at the Portland trade show. I was running a Bridgeport knee mill at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    This hasn't been our experience at all when we run one of our aluminum production jobs.
    The volume of chips is simply too much for it to handle. And it gets into our coolant tank at times too.
    We've tried everything short of buying the top of the line conveyor. But that won't solve the mountains of chips inside the machine. So I guess you could say that the Brother removes too much material
    Interesting. How often are you triggering the wash down? We have a cycle that turns a 15lb aluminum billet into a less than 1lb part. There's a control parameter to set a wash down timer, so that you can trigger it by M-code at the end of the cycle and it'll stop automatically after however long. We trigger the wash down half way through the cycle after the first bit of heavy material removal and then again at the end of the cycle, I think for 8 seconds. We do tend to have a pile of chips under the X axis waycovers at the end of the day, mostly because this part keeps the table in the same 6" section of Y travel, but we've never had to pause production to clean it manually.

    As for chips in the coolant tank -- yes, I consider that a problem, but there are various methods to make it less of an issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    This hasn't been our experience at all when we run one of our aluminum production jobs.
    The volume of chips is simply too much for it to handle. And it gets into our coolant tank at times too.
    We've tried everything short of buying the top of the line conveyor. But that won't solve the mountains of chips inside the machine. So I guess you could say that the Brother removes too much material
    It might depend on the type of chip. Straight flute endmill makes mountains of fluffy whiskers that are hard to get moving. A segmented or wavy/corncob rougher fixes that.

    Regards.

    Mike

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    Yea, our customers love these.
    I keep on putting it off but I gotta give these some more attention. Start to stock more sizes and flute lengths. These are old school but kick ass.

    Tool Holders, Collets and Machine Accessories 3 Flute Carbide 45 deg Helix - MariTool

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    What's pretty quick? Or haven't you measured it. Mine is 4.1 seconds with a prestaged tool, and it is servo driven, and 20 years old. The literature says 2.5 seconds, which would be accurate if it would orient the spindle while moving to the TC position.
    Recorded one for you:

    https://youtu.be/77NxpHCq_S4

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    The first time I saw a bigger mill, I don't remember if they were verticals or horizontals, with 3,500 and 4,000 ipm rapids really spooked me too. Man those things were impressive!!! Linear motors on all axis, I wonder what the power draw was? This was around the mid 1990s at the Portland trade show. I was running a Bridgeport knee mill at the time.
    Fastest mill i'm aware of, an X400U, currently goes 100Meters/min, or 3937ipm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Yea, our customers love these.
    I keep on putting it off but I gotta give these some more attention. Start to stock more sizes and flute lengths. These are old school but kick ass.

    Tool Holders, Collets and Machine Accessories 3 Flute Carbide 45 deg Helix - MariTool
    Could refresh with the more modern coatings you're starting to use as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    This hasn't been our experience at all when we run one of our aluminum production jobs.
    The volume of chips is simply too much for it to handle. And it gets into our coolant tank at times too.
    We've tried everything short of buying the top of the line conveyor. But that won't solve the mountains of chips inside the machine. So I guess you could say that the Brother removes too much material
    I had the same problem early on, especially if the operator wasn't paying attention. I switched to 1/2" corncob for most removal and the problem went away. Mari has some that work well. I also put some fine mesh screen on top of the standard screen to make life easier.

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  20. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Yea, our customers love these.
    I keep on putting it off but I gotta give these some more attention. Start to stock more sizes and flute lengths. These are old school but kick ass.

    Tool Holders, Collets and Machine Accessories 3 Flute Carbide 45 deg Helix - MariTool
    Are these pretty free-cutting? I'm afraid of the 45' helix in the Brother if you really try to go to town.
    I would also say side-lock or ER32 minimum for BT30. That thing would pull out of an SK if it was 3/8' or larger (ask me how I know! That was an expensive fixture repair).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Recorded one for you:

    https://youtu.be/77NxpHCq_S4
    yea, haas side-mounts have been that fast for quite a while. I think they actually slowed them a touch around '05?
    I had an '03 that was crazy fast. And, with pre-call the geneva didn't really slow them down much. On the 24's any way. Different story on the 40's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    Are these pretty free-cutting? I'm afraid of the 45' helix in the Brother if you really try to go to town.
    I would also say side-lock or ER32 minimum for BT30. That thing would pull out of an SK if it was 3/8' or larger (ask me how I know! That was an expensive fixture repair).
    Yes, I can't quantify it but my sense is that the wavy edge reduces pull out. Doesn't help if the operator forgets to tighten down the pitbull clamp, but can't blame that on the end mill...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Recorded one for you:

    https://youtu.be/77NxpHCq_S4
    Still no idea how long a chip to chip tool change takes. As for the tool change itself, meh, that is slow. Mine does it in .7 seconds.


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