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Brother Speedio vs Okuma M560-V

SRT Mike

Stainless
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Location
Boston MA
I know these are quite different machines. But I am gonna think out loud... help me out here guys, I need to make a decision before the end of the weekend if not by tomorrow.

I design and manufacture 100% my own parts and always will. I don't think I will ever be cutting inconel and I can count on one hand the number of times I've cut stainless. I cut 75% acrylic and 25% 6061 aluminum, most of my parts are the size of pack of cigarettes or smaller. But I never know what I'll be making next... I made a product out of titanium a few years back, and had one 10" diameter x 6" high 7075 aluminum part I designed that wasn't a hit in the marketplace but could have been.

I don't need the speed of the Brother machine.. sometimes my existing VMC sits idle for several days. But sometimes orders come in and I have stacks of parts lined up and I wish it was faster - it has a 6k spindle and I drip feed it. I do a ton of profiling and I can't feed it data fast enough and it can't process fast enough.

I like the Brother because it's fast and would tear through my work. I like that it's so reliable and it's cheap to fix - I have a few employees and a $30k repair bill would be a huge blow. I like the support from Yamazen.

My concerns about the Brother are it's surfacing capabilities... I read a lot of people dicking with the Mode B stuff and can't get it dialed in. On the other hand, it will be LIGHT years ahead of my 1998 Leadwell with a Mitsubishi 50M control. I kinda worry about the power... I have a much more powerful machine now, but I also do work for a shop with tons of Robodrills, so I program "light and fast" cuts all day and know how to roll that way too. I worry about losing the big table I have now where I have a tooling plate with pins to mount vises and fixtures and whatever I want. And I worry about not being able to do 5-axis in the future if I ever get there (but I think if I ever get there I'd buy a dedicated machine).

On the Okuma, it's a beast. I have an Okuma lathe now and I love it. I think the Okuma is more precise than the Brother and everyone I know with one loves it. I think it has better surfacing capability and HiCut is easier to use/tweak than ModeB. I like the tool capacity (I have 20 tools now and I'm using them all, though I rarely have to change tools out but more would be nice). I like the power - it's nice to be able to hog with a 1" rougher if I want to (like on that 10" dia part I did). It's nice to have a catch-all machine that could do anything I ask of it.

But I worry about the quirks of the machine, I've heard chip flow isn't great, it requires expensive grease monthly and the door seals fail. I think it will be less reliable than the Brother. And I know Okuma charges out the ass for parts. The machine is probably a fair bit more than the Speedio up front too. It can do 5-axis, but it's so expensive that I could buy a nice used Brother 5-axis for the upgrade cost on the Okuma, so I doubt I'd ever do 5-axis on it.


I got a quote for the Speedio S1000x1 last year... just got a quote on the S700x1 this week and it's more than the 1000 was last year :(. The Speedio 700 is over $100k now. They are discounting it, but still - with almost no options, it's over $90k to my floor. The Okuma salesman is coming here in a few minutes to talk turkey, but although I've read numerous stories of people getting an M560-V for $95-99k, they don't seem to want to get close to that - we shall see.

I also found a Speedio S1000x1 an hour away from me with only a few hundred hours on it that's never had coolant in it and the guy wants $85k. Not sure what I could get it for... I was quoted $89k for the same machine last year, so I think his price is high... maybe $75k is more reasonable? I also found a 6-month old M560-V with 130 hours on it but they want $135k... it has a 4th axis, Rengage probe/tool probe and extended Z. Not sure what it can be bought for.

Got approved for financing today... need to make a decision in the next few days.

Like I said, I know the Speedio and M560 are very different machines, and I don't NEED the capabilities of either, and either would do what I need. But... I don't see why I would buy a Haas, Doosan, Robodrill or anything else when these machines are leaders in their classes - my thoughts anyway.

Curious what others would say. Also curious what others think of pricing. Especially curious what anyone can suggest as far as recent prices paid for a Speedio S1000x1, S700x1, Okuma M560-V or Okuma M460-VE. Or does anyone agree with my thoughts above or disagree with my pro's/con's?
 
I would say Okuma just because of my disdain for brother, but that said if they were close in price I would always take the Okuma as they are such beasts. Price wise I can tell you the used market for the brother is tough I had to beg to get rid of mine and it had way less hours on it that the one you found. Cant say what the used market for Okuma is :typing:
Gary
 
I've been in a similar boat a couple times, I always went with the Brother, but if you can actually get a new M560V for 100 then that's a slam dunk, assuming it comes with probing and a conveyor. Last I looked that would be more like 120. Okuma are pretty competitive on the base machines but hot damn do they want a lot for options. The exact same probing package that you can get for 5k from Haas and 7k on a Brother is 15k on an Okuma. And they option out a LOT of stuff I consider basic functionality.

That said, the one Okuma machine I have (a lathe) is my favourite machine, so...
 
Used market for the Okuma is pretty steep still, they are durable and extremely capable so there isn't anything stealing their thunder yet.

If the brother is overkill, the okuma is insane overkill as far as power and precision. The okuma can do light and fast, or grip it and rip it, one thing is does better than any machine that isn't specifically built for mold work is surfacing.

The 560 or 460 are the best all around VMCs going, there are machines that are faster and there are machines that are better surfacing machines but they are specialist machines that are by nature weak in other areas. If your trying to buy a very good do it all VMC the Okuma is the right answer.

Find a nice used 460, they weren't all that popular due to the smaller size with a similar price to the 560. Long term the Okuma is the safer machine to spend money on but it sounds like way more machine than you need. in your shoes $$ would be the deciding factor, if you found both machines for similar $$ I'd go okuma
 
I've been in a similar boat a couple times, I always went with the Brother, but if you can actually get a new M560V for 100 then that's a slam dunk, assuming it comes with probing and a conveyor. Last I looked that would be more like 120. Okuma are pretty competitive on the base machines but hot damn do they want a lot for options. The exact same probing package that you can get for 5k from Haas and 7k on a Brother is 15k on an Okuma. And they option out a LOT of stuff I consider basic functionality.

That said, the one Okuma machine I have (a lathe) is my favourite machine, so...

There aren't all that many options on the 560. About the only one I can think of that's a little ridiculous is the wash down gun, but I solved that with $50 at the local hardware store.

Haas is the options king, price up a VF4 with all the options that the Okuma comes with standard and you'll spend the same money, except one way you own an Okuma....so...theres that...
 
If you are not doing mass production, or 500 part qty. And you are looking at mostly prototype with light runs. I would pick the 40 taper over the 30. Now my brothers are reliable and fast, service have always been good to us, Mostly never worry about them running. But the 30 taper has limitations the 40 taper does not have.
 
I know these are quite different machines. But I am gonna think out loud... help me out here guys, I need to make a decision before the end of the weekend if not by tomorrow.

I design and manufacture 100% my own parts and always will. I don't think I will ever be cutting inconel and I can count on one hand the number of times I've cut stainless. I cut 75% acrylic and 25% 6061 aluminum, most of my parts are the size of pack of cigarettes or smaller. But I never know what I'll be making next... I made a product out of titanium a few years back, and had one 10" diameter x 6" high 7075 aluminum part I designed that wasn't a hit in the marketplace but could have been.

I don't need the speed of the Brother machine.. sometimes my existing VMC sits idle for several days. But sometimes orders come in and I have stacks of parts lined up and I wish it was faster - it has a 6k spindle and I drip feed it. I do a ton of profiling and I can't feed it data fast enough and it can't process fast enough.

I like the Brother because it's fast and would tear through my work. I like that it's so reliable and it's cheap to fix - I have a few employees and a $30k repair bill would be a huge blow. I like the support from Yamazen.

My concerns about the Brother are it's surfacing capabilities... I read a lot of people dicking with the Mode B stuff and can't get it dialed in. On the other hand, it will be LIGHT years ahead of my 1998 Leadwell with a Mitsubishi 50M control. I kinda worry about the power... I have a much more powerful machine now, but I also do work for a shop with tons of Robodrills, so I program "light and fast" cuts all day and know how to roll that way too. I worry about losing the big table I have now where I have a tooling plate with pins to mount vises and fixtures and whatever I want. And I worry about not being able to do 5-axis in the future if I ever get there (but I think if I ever get there I'd buy a dedicated machine).

On the Okuma, it's a beast. I have an Okuma lathe now and I love it. I think the Okuma is more precise than the Brother and everyone I know with one loves it. I think it has better surfacing capability and HiCut is easier to use/tweak than ModeB. I like the tool capacity (I have 20 tools now and I'm using them all, though I rarely have to change tools out but more would be nice). I like the power - it's nice to be able to hog with a 1" rougher if I want to (like on that 10" dia part I did). It's nice to have a catch-all machine that could do anything I ask of it.

But I worry about the quirks of the machine, I've heard chip flow isn't great, it requires expensive grease monthly and the door seals fail. I think it will be less reliable than the Brother. And I know Okuma charges out the ass for parts. The machine is probably a fair bit more than the Speedio up front too. It can do 5-axis, but it's so expensive that I could buy a nice used Brother 5-axis for the upgrade cost on the Okuma, so I doubt I'd ever do 5-axis on it.


I got a quote for the Speedio S1000x1 last year... just got a quote on the S700x1 this week and it's more than the 1000 was last year :(. The Speedio 700 is over $100k now. They are discounting it, but still - with almost no options, it's over $90k to my floor. The Okuma salesman is coming here in a few minutes to talk turkey, but although I've read numerous stories of people getting an M560-V for $95-99k, they don't seem to want to get close to that - we shall see.

I also found a Speedio S1000x1 an hour away from me with only a few hundred hours on it that's never had coolant in it and the guy wants $85k. Not sure what I could get it for... I was quoted $89k for the same machine last year, so I think his price is high... maybe $75k is more reasonable? I also found a 6-month old M560-V with 130 hours on it but they want $135k... it has a 4th axis, Rengage probe/tool probe and extended Z. Not sure what it can be bought for.

Got approved for financing today... need to make a decision in the next few days.

Like I said, I know the Speedio and M560 are very different machines, and I don't NEED the capabilities of either, and either would do what I need. But... I don't see why I would buy a Haas, Doosan, Robodrill or anything else when these machines are leaders in their classes - my thoughts anyway.

Curious what others would say. Also curious what others think of pricing. Especially curious what anyone can suggest as far as recent prices paid for a Speedio S1000x1, S700x1, Okuma M560-V or Okuma M460-VE. Or does anyone agree with my thoughts above or disagree with my pro's/con's?

Ok, you already have an Okuma lathe, so getting a mill with the OSP control will be an easier transition.

Don't bother with the 460, for about the same price you can get the 560.
About the things that I've bolded in red:
You mention concern about surfacing capability. Genos wins hands down. It's 1000x easier to change settings, and you can even easily put Hi-Cut changes in the program on the fly.

Yes the tube of grease is expensive. IIRC it's $150 for a tube. We have 3 Genos mills our 1st one is 5 yrs old, and we're still using the same tube of grease so that price is a non-issue.

Chip flow problems: Meh, I've only had chip flow issues when I'm taking a big D.O.C. in materials like aluminum where the chip volume is so much that the augers can't keep up. I'm talking a shit ton of material removal. The fix is to use a 3 flute end mill with a chip breaker, not a corn cob style, but just a chip breaker. Problem solved.

As for the door seals, that's a new one to me, haven't had an issue with ours.

tl:dr
both machines are great,they each have their specialties but if your main concern is surfacing, go with the Genos.
 
Check out this thread starting about post #38:

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...ma-genos-m560v-330911/?highlight=fs+genos+560

PM me and I can get you in touch with him if you have specific questions. When I started working with him he had a fairly new Mori horizontal and the 560 was about 6 months old. Now he has the 4 Brother High Torques and R650 High Torque is next on his list. 95% of his work is alloy steels and stainlesses. very little aluminum. Push on your local Brother rep. It's the end of the year and they want to move inventory.
 
I cut 75% acrylic and 25% 6061 aluminum, most of my parts are the size of pack of cigarettes or smaller.

IMHO the Okuma will be overkill. It seems that you have the perfect work for a S500.

There're folks here that are very successful with surface quality. Mode B is something you will have to learn, but it's not the end of the world.

I have my S700 with factory parameters, and I get excellent surface finish in plastic and aluminum all day long.
 
The Brother Mode B situation is getting cleared up here in short order.

The problem is that the Brother factory has been continually improving Mode B and the entire High Accuracy system interface in the firmware, but they have never told Yamazen about this, and they also apparently decided to randomly start leaving some user parameters blank, and cranking down the machine parameters to something absurdly low.

(By improve, I mean it now does helical, the algorithm is a bit smarter on smoothing, it can apply to 4 axis motion, and a new interface)

Yamazen has solved the machine parameters, and I've been developing user parameters on my own parts and doing test articles. We now have Mode B running extremely well.

We also found that buried in the control is a new interface for High Accuracy. A new setting screen lets you select a default mode to run all code in (like how Haas sets all code to run in G187 P2), and you can now easily tweak those modes from the user parameters to your liking. In machine parameters, you maintain full control of the driving profiles so you can do application tuning to your heart's content. New M codes (M298 Ln, M299) control all this.

I'll be putting my numbers out soon for folks to try them out on different parts so we can get a broader test going and tweak as necessary. I'm emailing back and forth with the folks at Yamazen and have the new codes on a couple of other machines as well. Once it's really nailed, my hope is that Yamazen will enable the new Mode B interface and input the codes during machine commissioning, and use this new stuff in their training as the standard.

@lumalabsllc on Instagram: “Mode B parameter development. This is with Finishing S, 12ipm on a bull nose .25 cutter and .5” step over using a Blend toolpath. 6…”

@lumalabsllc on Instagram: “Little overview of WTH the new High Accuracy Speedio interface is”
 
I have two 560's and just got a Brother S500. If I was going to have just one machine it would be the Okuma. Very fast, terrific finishes, easy to use control, just love the machines. The Brothers are very fast, well made, and more options in the control than you will ever take advantage of (much like the Okuma too). The Brother control is a lot like a good Fanuc - powerful, fast, but nothing as friendly as the Okuma P200 or 300. Add the Brother when you need more than one machine. If business stays good next year I will probably add at least one more Brother.
 
Just for fun, see what is in stock at Yamazen. I rec'd another email from Yamazen headquarters saying they were looking to blow out in-stock machines.
Based on the size of your parts, what size machine do you need? Do you need a 40 taper machine? I used to run only 40 taper, now I only run 30 taper. I have 2 dual contact machines, and 2 standard taper. I've not noticed any loss of performance - but I don't chase work that would take a lot of horsepower. I have found I can run jobs a lot (a LOT) faster on the Brother than even a small fast 40 taper. Accuracy is more dependent on good machining practice than the compared accuracy of either of these machines IMO. If you have a product line you likely aren't chasing .0002 anyway. :) You should be able to count on zero down time from either machine. That's a really good feeling.
One very nice thing about the Brother - only needs 30 amps. :)
Good luck!
 
I see Tap/Drill machines like those Brother and Fanuc as specialty machines, yes they excel at a few things but they're certainly not the versatility of a bigger solid 40 taper machine that will do everything they can in a few seconds more or less, and then a lot more stuff that will rip a 30 taper out of the spindle.

Could be worth seeing if Doosan has some good end of year deals out your way.
 
A couple things, that are just my opinion. Get another Yamazen quote. My sales guy was just in last week and said they had some KILLER deals on some 700’s if I was ready. :willy_nilly:

I got my S1000 in October and love it. Support has been awesome, machine has been awesome, and if I could afford it, I would order a 700. I’m in the same boat though. I ran my machine last Friday and this Tuesday. I do a lot of job shop stuff, a big production run for me is 100 pcs. But I run all steel, mostly tool steel.

I’ve been meaning to do an update thread, but right now my biggest problem is keeping the brother feed. I bought it because I have very limited time to prototype and make parts. I needed a more efficient machine. The Brother is killing me. I can’t keep up. I have a batch of parts I’m making for a customer, all 3 setups total a run time of 1:44. I ran 20 parts last week profiling parts I normally would have made form tooling for, just to have a long running program. Used some standard tools I had laying around and got the run time up to 30 minutes.

Push back on Yamazen, those prices are not right. I know I got an awesome deal on my S1000 but those prices you listed can’t be right.

I don’t know where you guys see Brothers that you “can’t give away” I spent the last year looking for used and found less than FIVE, they all wanted nearly new prices.
 
Ok, you already have an Okuma lathe, so getting a mill with the OSP control will be an easier transition.

Don't bother with the 460, for about the same price you can get the 560.
About the things that I've bolded in red:
You mention concern about surfacing capability. Genos wins hands down. It's 1000x easier to change settings, and you can even easily put Hi-Cut changes in the program on the fly.

Yes the tube of grease is expensive. IIRC it's $150 for a tube. We have 3 Genos mills our 1st one is 5 yrs old, and we're still using the same tube of grease so that price is a non-issue.

Chip flow problems: Meh, I've only had chip flow issues when I'm taking a big D.O.C. in materials like aluminum where the chip volume is so much that the augers can't keep up. I'm talking a shit ton of material removal. The fix is to use a 3 flute end mill with a chip breaker, not a corn cob style, but just a chip breaker. Problem solved.

As for the door seals, that's a new one to me, haven't had an issue with ours.

tl:dr
both machines are great,they each have their specialties but if your main concern is surfacing, go with the Genos.

Thanks for the post. Okuma salesman was here today - nice guy (Morris). I have read numerous stories of people getting the M560 for just under $100k. The guy said absolutely no way in hell is that possible and it's almost certainly less than they pay for the machine - only way that could ever happen is some crazy show special at IMTS or a demo model. But three people have said they got 'em in the past year for <100k. He said he'll do his best but we shall see.

On the control side, I started out as a software developer who moved into electronics engineering and only got into machining (18 years ago now) to make my own products... so I'm very comfortable learning a new control. I've owned/run Mitsubishi, Okuma, Fadal, Fanuc, Mazak and custom/Mach3/LinuxCNC machines. I find Okuma quite logical and user-friendly, but I also find Fanuc quite user friendly too where everyone else hates it - so maybe my opinion is suspect. Point being, control isn't a big factor to me... but I am impressed by the processing power of the Okuma, they have their software/hardware down tight.

Good to know the grease is a non-issue, puts my mind at ease!

On the chip flow... it's not so much shoddy flow, but rather that cutting acrylic produces big fluffy chips that flow with the coolant during roughing, but when I get to finishing, I get powder-like fines that settle in the corners and turn into a concrete-like sludge. Everyone I've talked to who ever ran a machine with augers said it's a nightmare because it ends up clogging the auger and is a bitch to clean. Any comments? The problem is getting enough flow to keep the fines moving. Right now my machine flushes them out the back and I just manually scrape them into a hopper - works OK for me.

I only heard about door seals from a few guys - that if you don't keep them clean, chips build up and cause them to tear and once that starts, they deteriorate quick and need replaced and it's $$$. May be a non-issue too.

Good to hear you like the Okuma for surfacing... I do quite a bit of that.
 
I've been in a similar boat a couple times, I always went with the Brother, but if you can actually get a new M560V for 100 then that's a slam dunk, assuming it comes with probing and a conveyor. Last I looked that would be more like 120. Okuma are pretty competitive on the base machines but hot damn do they want a lot for options. The exact same probing package that you can get for 5k from Haas and 7k on a Brother is 15k on an Okuma. And they option out a LOT of stuff I consider basic functionality.

That said, the one Okuma machine I have (a lathe) is my favourite machine, so...

The people I've heard getting the M560 for 100k are only with the chip conveyor, not with the probing. Okuma prices on probing are higher than giraffe nuts, unfortunately :(
 
A few people have mentioned pushing Brother for a better deal.

My salesman is a fantastic guy and a class act. He has been very helpful and patient over the years I've known him. I'm also kind of a "just give me the bottom line and I'll say yes or no" type of person so perhaps I could do better if I pushed harder, but I rather ask for their best offer and make a decision off that rather than hound them for discounts repeatedly... just a personality thing on my end. Plus, without knowing what others are paying, I have no idea what the target even is. They are knocking $10k off the machine price as a year-end special, but I think the issue is that the Speedios have been so successful that Brother has been (understandably) jacking up the price. I have a few quotes for the S700 and S1000 over the past 3 years and the current 700 list price is just about 50% higher than it was back in 2016. Not near Robodrill prices yet, but not nearly as far off it as they were back in the day.

Interesting side note - was talking to a guy I know that used to have a shop that closed up a few years back... swore to me that MSRP on a brandy-new 700mm/10kRPM Robodrill was $59k all day long from Methods. Flat out refused to believe me when I told him to double that, then add another 10k-20k. Was in disbelief when we ran into the Methods salesman. I wonder if the same phenomenon is at play with Brother, where the price is rising fast and people are basing their pricing ideas based on what they were 6-12mo ago? Just a thought...
 
The people I've heard getting the M560 for 100k are only with the chip conveyor, not with the probing. Okuma prices on probing are higher than giraffe nuts, unfortunately :(

Back when list price with a conveyor was 119k you could wrangle some pretty amazing deals. Then the secret got out on the 560. List is $140k ish now?

OP, if speed is important the brother wins by a bunch. The okuma isnt slow but the brother is crazy fast. If the work is variable, could change, lower volume and you want to surface like a pro...I'd go okuma....this all assumes the $ is similar.
 
Speedios have numerous advantages, but these advantages must matter to you.

1. Small footprint
2. Lightweight - you can easily move it around the shop yourself if you need to rearrange your layout
3. Runs off a 30A breaker with 10 gauge wiring
4. Longevity - designed as a long term workhorse machine, will keep running all the way into your retirement with relatively low cost replacement parts, e.g. $5K spindle. Resale value is not great, possibly because the industry as a whole hasn't accepted BT30 as a viable alternative to CAT40
5. Scalability - for all the reasons above, easy to add additional machines

Conversely, the disadvantages:

1. 30 taper, 30 amps, and overall lightweight
2. With a small footprint you also get a smaller coolant tank. Chip evacuation is not great. Maybe not a big deal if you're not running 80+ hours a week
3. Smaller ATC, although you can swap out a complete carousel of tools and touch them off in 10 minutes. But your programs are limited to 21 tools
4. Lower table weight capacity so you can't completely fill up the table with all-cast-iron Orange Vises (shameless plug)

If you want to be prepared for just about anything that comes through your door, it's going to be difficult to get away from a good sized 40-taper VMC. But you have the Leadwell for that.
 
A few people have mentioned pushing Brother for a better deal.
My suggestion would be to ask your sales guy "just thought I'd give things another shot, are there any specials/screaming deals on in-stock machines?"

I had no clue I'd be so happy with the Brother machines. After I had one for a couple of months, I had no desire for another brand for my work. Sometimes I had to change the way I approached things, but the net result was always very positive. Based on the size of work you noted above, I think it would be a good fit. Either way, hope it works out well for you!
 








 
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