Busted Talon Grip inserts?
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  1. #1
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    Default Busted Talon Grip inserts?

    We've used Talon Grip jaws in our vises for a while now. Don't think I've ever seen this.

    Got a 20k piece job to do so I setup a couple of fixtures with pitbull clamps & talon grips. Bought all new clamps for this job. Done less than 1k parts so far, so less than 25 clampings on these.

    talon1.jpg

    talon2.jpg

    talon3.jpg


    Is this a thing? How often do these break like this? Never seen it on our vises and I know we tighten the shit out of those things. Can the pitbull really put that much pressure on the talon grip here? It's not very tight, just "snug". Til it stops, then maybe a 1/4 turn?

    What's weird is both of these talons broke on the same pallet on same run. One part went out thru the conveyor. Second one was sitting there and as I'm removing some of the other parts, it just fell out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    We've used Talon Grip jaws in our vises for a while now. Don't think I've ever seen this.

    Got a 20k piece job to do so I setup a couple of fixtures with pitbull clamps & talon grips. Bought all new clamps for this job. Done less than 1k parts so far, so less than 25 clampings on these.

    talon1.jpg

    talon2.jpg

    talon3.jpg


    Is this a thing? How often do these break like this? Never seen it on our vises and I know we tighten the shit out of those things. Can the pitbull really put that much pressure on the talon grip here? It's not very tight, just "snug". Til it stops, then maybe a 1/4 turn?

    What's weird is both of these talons broke on the same pallet on same run. One part went out thru the conveyor. Second one was sitting there and as I'm removing some of the other parts, it just fell out.
    I have had some inserts blow out on my VersaGrips...id just order some more from amazon.com

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    I wonder if the heat treat was bad. I don't see signs of fatigue, like could happen with multiple clamping cycles.

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    Any chance the operator is tapping the parts down with a hammer?
    I learned that lesson early. Paid that stupid tax.

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    Get a torque wrench and stay under the max torque rating. "Til it stops, then maybe a 1/4 turn" means you have no idea what torque you're applying.

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    What's the material? I've had issues with them when running prehard or clamping too hard on tool steel.

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    We had a batch of TalonGrips that did exactly that maybe 4 months ago. We have been using them for many years so when new ones started breaking I immediately returned them. Ordered another batch about 2 months ago and all is well. I would return them and ask for a refund.


    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by ARB View Post
    Any chance the operator is tapping the parts down with a hammer?
    I learned that lesson early. Paid that stupid tax.
    LOL, yes I've had that issue and paid that tax before too. At least I can rule that out. I've been the only one loading these so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Get a torque wrench and stay under the max torque rating. "Til it stops, then maybe a 1/4 turn" means you have no idea what torque you're applying.
    True, I don't have an exact torque. I guess my point was it doesn't seem that tight, (yeah I know highly subjective) compared to how much pressure we must put on these things in a 6" vise. Hence the "tighten the shit out of them." If these fail regularly like this, I would've expected to see that a time or two years ago. Surprised me since it is only a little baby 1/4-20 pitbull pushing on them.

    I'll get a torque wrench on em and see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AARONT View Post
    What's the material? I've had issues with them when running prehard or clamping too hard on tool steel.
    17-4 annealed

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    I am pretty sure I overtighten them now and then. I've had em break. Usually get more life out of them than you did.

    Sometimes they are a bit softer, and after hundreds? of clamps in stuff like 4140 they may deform to the point where they don't really bite in.

    Other times, they are a bit harder and just crack off like you have there.

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    Possibly too much torque on them when profiling the parts? Too bad the Talon grips don't come in different widths for different parts. Or locate the Talon grips centered between the parts so they are right on the ends of the parts to reduce the twisting effect of profiling your parts.

    All assuming there is no difference in the heat treat or steel.

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    I've had this happen on several different occasions over the past 4yrs of using Talon Grips in the shop. Each time it has happened when working with Titanium, A2 and D2 steel. I did chip a few in some 4140 but that job ran after some D2 and suspect they were already ready to give. Stuff like alum, copper and plastics they last forever. I keep several spares on hand and just swap out the broken ones which really only happens a few times each year. I've saved way more in time than the replacements cost.

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    Checked with a husky torque wrench. Looks to be about 80-90 in/lbs. That's about half the max of 14.5 ft/lbs per miteebite.


    Interesting thought about the profiling tool putting torque on the part. Not sure how I could estimate that. Seems like a pretty conservative cut, IMO. Rough cut is an adaptive path using a Ø5/16" 4 flute. 6% max stepover, 360 sfm, .0045ipt (80ipm @ 4400) Not trying to get too crazy, aiming to run this at night unattented.

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    After looking at your photos I just thought you might be point loading the corners when profiling.

    To those who have broken these before, do the way these grips brake look like the way yours broke? Looking at how they fracture it looks like the outside corners are lifting up.

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    Got a hardness tester? Maybe check them and see of those units are abnormally brittle?

    Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

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    Years ago, I made my own Talon Grip style jaws when they were still really expensive.
    I started out around 52 Rc and still had issues with fractures.
    Some due to my assymetric geometry to pull the part down (didn't work), I then ground the angles that bite into the workpiece to be symmetric and that helped alot.
    But still had problems when running 304 and 4140. I drew them back to around 45 Rc to get much better performance.
    Your problem looks like a heat-treat issue, send em back or....see if you can get them to recommend a draw temperature to fix them.

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    I've had a few break the same way. I try to avoid using them on stainless or harder materials. Mine have broken after a while not after a few goes, but if you're tightening them down alot and the material is harder, I'm not sure it's a bad batch.

    I am curious what material they are using. If it were hardened tool steel I'd think they would advertise that, so it makes me think it's not all that exotic.

    talon.jpg

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    It's 17-4 annealed


    So this morning I can definitely rule out the roughing tool or form tap torquing the part. I loaded up a full pallet, watched the facemill mill off the op2's, then noticed I'm missing one op1 part. Uhhh nothing even touched that one yet? Same torque on the pitpulls "snug" (to 80-90 in/lbs)

    talon11.jpg

    I guess my money is on bad batch. Sucks since I have about 200 little timebombs waiting to go off. Hopefully not at the wrong time and break tools. Not looking forward to swapping these all out.

    Tried to get closer up pic:

    talon12.jpg

    talon13.jpg

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    I guess see if you can get ahold of mitee bite and if they will swap em out for you?

    If it were me, I would modify that fixture slightly and have 2 talon grips per part instead of one. For relatively short parts like you have, I always have 2 talon grips right next to each other. It appears you would be able to do this without much effort?

    That should mitigate most failures. If you have 1 or 2 teeth break off, you should still have 2 left. Combine that with the force being spread out over 4 points rather than 2 and you'll have less breakage anyway.

    I've never used em in conjunction with a pitbull, I've only ever used them in jaws.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thesidetalker View Post
    It's 17-4 annealed


    So this morning I can definitely rule out the roughing tool or form tap torquing the part. I loaded up a full pallet, watched the facemill mill off the op2's, then noticed I'm missing one op1 part. Uhhh nothing even touched that one yet? Same torque on the pitpulls "snug" (to 80-90 in/lbs)

    talon11.jpg

    I guess my money is on bad batch. Sucks since I have about 200 little timebombs waiting to go off. Hopefully not at the wrong time and break tools. Not looking forward to swapping these all out.

    Tried to get closer up pic:

    talon12.jpg

    talon13.jpg
    There's rust on the edge of some of those cracks, so it's possible looking at some of the clamps you may see the crack before they let go, on the other hand do you have time to periodically check the clamps, I would guess not.

    Evidently there's a bad lot of clamps with incorrect heat treat, that looks like a brittle fracture.


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