Buying 5th Axis for 2002 HAAS VF3 vs Saving up for HAAS UM500

SWOH · Sep 9, 2020

Glad to have found this forum! It's very helpful, and I could use some advice...

We have a shop filled with 20-25 year old HAAS machines.
Some of our VF3s are configured to run a 4th axis, but we do not have a single 5th axis in the place.
I realize it won't be true 5th axis machining, it'll be 3+2 machining, but we are starting to get more and more requests for us to complete parts that require 5th axis machining. It would be awesome to have the capability and keep the work in-house instead of sending it out.

Our machines have over 20,000 hours on them, but then I look across our shop and see our old Lucas boring mills that were built in the 1960s that we still use on a everyday basis. I'm hoping these machines have 20+ more years of life in them, and just upgrading to the 5th axis makes the most sense.

But I'm worried that we would be sinking money into machinery that may not be as well built as the post-war era Bridgeports, lathes, and other machines that are still being widely used today.

Is going for the 5th axis for our current HAAS VF3s a wise move financially, or is it smarter to just keep saving up and try to get a new 5th axis machine like the HAAS UM500?

as9100d · Sep 9, 2020

Buying a new 5 axis is the way to go...

But maybe look at another brand

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mutiny · Sep 9, 2020

Having never done a lick of 5-axis machining, take my word with a grain of salt: I think it likely depends on the kind of work being sent your way. There are serious size restrictions to mounting a trunnion on a 3 axis VMC compared to a machine built for 5ax.

Evenglischatiest · Sep 9, 2020

Do you, or anyone else in the shop, have any experience running and programming 5 axis mills? If not, I'd lean toward the trunion. Specifically, a used one. If you have no 5 axis experience, I see a lot of crashes in your immediate future. And you can crash a lot harder in 5 axes than you can in most 3 axis setups. If you miss a rapid in B, and tear the head off your mill, wouldn't you rather do that on a 25 year old HAAS?

Work out all the bugs and growing pains on an old, cheap machine. Even if that combination won't make the parts you hope to make. Consider it a training expense. You wouldn't send your kid to his first day of driver training in a new $300k Ferrari. Why would a new $300k mill be any different? Once you get comfortable with 5 axis programming and setup, then get whatever you think you'll need to make actual parts. And by then, you'll have a better idea of what you'll really need.

If someone there already knows what he's doing, then it comes down to the parts you want to make, and what works best to make them. There's no point in getting anything fancy to drill a couple cross holes. Similarly, there's no point in trying to mill turbines on a 3+2.

empower · Sep 9, 2020

stay away from the UMC500... ours is a big giant lemon.

if you're dead set on haas, we do have a 2013 TRT160 trunnion we're looking to sell for a good price, pm if interested.

bryan_machine · Sep 9, 2020

Please notice Bryan's rule of 5-axis workspace configuration - the effective size of the 5-axis machine (or a trunnion) does not fit with your intutions from (apparently quite long) experience with 3-axis machines. A 5-axis effective size is mostly smaller than the the same travel 3-axis machine, except for those special cases where it's effectively much larger. You don't really grok this until you've worked with it. No matter how smart you are.

And so, as always, I *URGE* you to gather up models of typical parts, model up fixturing, model up the real travels of the machine of interest, and then see will the part, with its workholding, fit in the machine? Can you actually get to all sides? Will the tools clear? Will the tool changer support the length of tools you need to reach across the table? [It's a pretty weird case for a 3-axis VMC to be "too big" to work on a part, it's a way more likely issue on 5-axis because of the "reach across the table" issue.]

On 3-axis machines we all learn quick that Z travel and Z clearence (how far the spindle nose is off the table at lowest Z) are a big deal, and that by the time we have fixturing, the part, the long drill or reamer, etc. the machine that seemed like it had "plenty" of Z clearance and travel is sometimes a problem.

On a 5-axis (or 3+2) machine you get to play this same game on all sides of the part.

The need to have the spindle clear the table (trunnion/rotary) means you will often have the part mounted up in the air on a fixture (there went some more Z height), and will have sometimes longer tools to reach across the table (though sometimes you can cut at funny angles and the tools are shorter.)

So, before you put a trunnion on your not-so-large VF3s, or buy a "that seems big enough and surely cost enough" UMC500, do some modeling.

(Also, there are lots of other folks making 5-axis machines....)

ChipSplitter · Sep 10, 2020

I would really look at Doosan or even Okuma before Haas.

empower · Sep 10, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
I would really look at Doosan or even Okuma before Haas.

understatement of the year!

as9100d · Sep 10, 2020

basically what we are all trying to say is dont buy haas.

Mike1974 · Sep 10, 2020

I would go new.

1) I *think* most new 5 axis machines come with some version of DWO and TCPC (if you don't know what it is, look it up, will be easier than explaining me thinks).

2) As mentioned above, a trunnion on a 3 ax machine eats Z real estate fast.

3) Have you checked if you have the ability to add a 5th on any of your machines? (they require an additional board and wiring, which might be cost prohibitive by itself on a 20 year old machine)

ChipSplitter · Sep 10, 2020

empwoer said:
understatement of the year!

I can do better than that.

"I make a motion to suggest bringing up the subject (if I may) of considering other potential builders besides Haas."

You should be able to decide whether or not to entertain that thought in your next all day meeting.... :willy_nilly:

Mike1974 · Sep 10, 2020

I'm not going to argue with the Haas haters, but the UMC 750 I ran was fine for 3+2 and simul 4th axis work... :leaving:

And stepping up from a 20 year old Haas to an Okuma, talk about diving in head first (price and possibly control wise if they've only known Haasfanucnese).

Speaking of price, why doesn't everyone do the Haas model?? I bet that drives a good percentage of Haas' sales by itself. Build a quote, add the options you want, see price, financing, etc...

boosted · Sep 10, 2020

Mike1974 said:
I'm not going to argue with the Haas haters, but the UMC 750 I ran was fine for 3+2 and simul 4th axis work...

Sure, the 750's have been around long enough that their weaknesses are well understood. But that 500 is a whole 'nother animal, and I have yet to hear anything good.

I'm also a fan of adding to one of your existing machines until you are skilled enough to outgrow it.

G00 Proto · Sep 10, 2020

I'll be the dissenting vote. Face it, after twenty years, you are a Haas shop... changing controls at this point might not be money and time well spent. I had to come to that realization. I've had Haas machines since they came out. Sure, I've run other controls, but the muscle memory is built and I'm fast at darn near everything a Haas needs to do. THERE ARE MUCH BETTER MACHINES OUT THERE. MANY ALSO HAVE A BETTER VALUE PROPOSITION AND MANY HAVE FAR SUPERIOR RIGIDITY, LOOK AHEAD, SPEED AND SOME WILL GIVE YOU A HAPPY ENDING FOR AN EXTRA FORTY BUCKS.

All that being said, I keep buying Haas machines. I am in business to make money, not to impress anyone. I'm fast and efficient as it is, and my bottom line is very healthy running Haas machines.

That said, I would not invest the money into adding a new 5th Axis on a 20 year old machine. The electronics are nearing obsolescence and will shit the bed the day after you get the new 5th running production. I probably wouldn't even buy a used 5th of that vintage and invest the time putting in cards and software to make it run in your existing 4th machines. You're going to have enough on your plate without those headaches. If I saw a 2002 machine that was already running well with the 5th for a good price, I might be tempted (but sometimes I can be a sucker).

Take some time really looking at your parts. Do you really need or want the UMC500 size. I have had better luck with the Haas Trunnions. Most of my parts are less than 6"x6" cubes and fit well on that size platter. The trunnions are stupid fast and only take up half of my table. That leaves room for a vise for 2nd op work or prepping the part for the 5th. The downside for me with the 750 or 500 is the diameter of the platter. Half of 500 is 250mm... that means that if I want to hit the center of the part with the A at 90 degrees, my tool needs to be 10 inches long

I have enough rigidity issues with my 4" tool. Only other option is to space the part out from the platen, and you can guess what that does to overall rigidity.

mhajicek · Sep 10, 2020

I've got a 2015 VF3-SS here with a TR160-Y trunnion on the right end of the table. It's been working great for 3+2 medical device parts since new, and leaves plenty of table space open for 3 axis ops. It wasn't available on mine, but newer machines have DWO and TCPC as an option. Even without them, picking up an accurate rotational center point yields good parts. For the price point it's hard to beat.

empower · Sep 10, 2020

Mike1974 said:
I'm not going to argue with the Haas haters, but the UMC 750 I ran was fine for 3+2 and simul 4th axis work...

And stepping up from a 20 year old Haas to an Okuma, talk about diving in head first (price and possibly control wise if they've only known Haasfanucnese).

Speaking of price, why doesn't everyone do the Haas model?? I bet that drives a good percentage of Haas' sales by itself. Build a quote, add the options you want, see price, financing, etc...

we have 6 haas machines in our shop, mostly classic control vf series, 2 tl1's and just recently bought the UMC500SS. in the beginning it was nice, we were content with it.
about 3 months ago, the main control board went out for no reason, was running it one day, came in next day to power it up, and the screen was blank.
took a month for them to replace the board, then all kinds of issues started popping up. dropping probe offsets/calibration, acting like there's no HSM enabled, even though it says it is. coolant leaking from everywhere (mostly when using TSC) and a host of other issues.
we gave them every chance, and i used to be a big supporter of Haas, not anymore.

coyoinu · Sep 10, 2020

i've got an old haas trt7 for sale with the 2 axis black box, roughly the same vintage as your machines

gkoenig · Sep 10, 2020

Evenglischatiest said:
Do you, or anyone else in the shop, have any experience running and programming 5 axis mills? If not, I'd lean toward the trunion. Specifically, a used one. If you have no 5 axis experience, I see a lot of crashes in your immediate future. And you can crash a lot harder in 5 axes than you can in most 3 axis setups. If you miss a rapid in B, and tear the head off your mill, wouldn't you rather do that on a 25 year old HAAS?

I think this is the ass backwards way to look at it.

A new 5 axis machine is going to:

1- Have a better work envelope than a 3 axis machine with a trunnion. I.e. you'll be doing sketchy things less and getting the spindle nose close to the work far less.

2- Dialed-in post processors for every CAM system. Everyone has a UMC500 post with enough users behind it that the bugs are worked out. A 25 year old mill with a trunnion? Not so much.

3- Raw capability. Tool Centerpoint Control + Probing makes life easier and less risky.

In fact, those last two things basically make programming most 5 axis work easy. Nobody is dealing with the tricks of programming off fussy centers of rotation or inverse time feed bullshit anymore. Use a good post. Model your setups properly. Use toolpath simulation... programming 5 axis is no longer the rocket surgery bullshit it once was, and that is because the machines and the tool chain have gotten way better.

D Nelson · Sep 10, 2020

G00 Proto said:
I'll be the dissenting vote. Face it, after twenty years, you are a Haas shop... changing controls at this point might not be money and time well spent. I had to come to that realization. I've had Haas machines since they came out. Sure, I've run other controls, but the muscle memory is built and I'm fast at darn near everything a Haas needs to do. THERE ARE MUCH BETTER MACHINES OUT THERE. MANY ALSO HAVE A BETTER VALUE PROPOSITION AND MANY HAVE FAR SUPERIOR RIGIDITY, LOOK AHEAD, SPEED AND SOME WILL GIVE YOU A HAPPY ENDING FOR AN EXTRA FORTY BUCKS.

All that being said, I keep buying Haas machines. I am in business to make money, not to impress anyone. I'm fast and efficient as it is, and my bottom line is very healthy running Haas machines.

That said, I would not invest the money into adding a new 5th Axis on a 20 year old machine. The electronics are nearing obsolescence and will shit the bed the day after you get the new 5th running production. I probably wouldn't even buy a used 5th of that vintage and invest the time putting in cards and software to make it run in your existing 4th machines. You're going to have enough on your plate without those headaches. If I saw a 2002 machine that was already running well with the 5th for a good price, I might be tempted (but sometimes I can be a sucker).

Take some time really looking at your parts. Do you really need or want the UMC500 size. I have had better luck with the Haas Trunnions. Most of my parts are less than 6"x6" cubes and fit well on that size platter. The trunnions are stupid fast and only take up half of my table. That leaves room for a vise for 2nd op work or prepping the part for the 5th. The downside for me with the 750 or 500 is the diameter of the platter. Half of 500 is 250mm... that means that if I want to hit the center of the part with the A at 90 degrees, my tool needs to be 10 inches long I have enough rigidity issues with my 4" tool. Only other option is to space the part out from the platen, and you can guess what that does to overall rigidity.

space it up so you have clearance
Don

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g-coder05 · Sep 10, 2020

While I think Haas is the best bang for buck when it comes to ROI, Puting $35K minimum in nearly 20 year old machines with that many hours on them is a horrible idea.

The small TR-160 is $35 grand and only gives you a 6 inch platter. Then,,,adding a 550 pound trunion on a VF3 with 20,000 hours is going to kill your screws and drives. Not to mention accuracies will be out the window. Then If you want an 8" platter you jump to the TR-210 for $42k but on a VF3 you will lose your Z height, plus now you have 800 pounds on the table. True Position on a part will be next to impossible.

Then,,,,You must have software version 18 or above to drive 3+2 and full 5X. I'm not even sure if a machine that old will support that software.

Your a 3rd of the way to a UMC-500 with the price of the TR-210 and you'll get twice the work envelope and not jerking nearly 1000 pounds around on screws, rails, and drives that were never designed to do that. Why not put that as a down payment and finance the rest? thinking 20 more years on a nearly 20 year old Haas now is way over optimistic.

Buying 5th Axis for 2002 HAAS VF3 vs Saving up for HAAS UM500

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