SVFeingold
Aluminum
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2015
- Location
- Santa Clara
Hi all!
You may remember me from some 5 years ago when I posted a thread about purchasing a Speedio for in-house prototyping for a startup. I got some great advice on that thread (and have read it many times) but sadly, as often happens, we were unable to secure the funding we needed and had to dissolve the business. C'est la vie.
Since then I've gone back to being a company engineer (for now), and the time is right to finally make that CNC purchase after all. Only this time I'm the client.
I just moved into a house here on the west coast, and a big part of the deciding factor was the ability to install a mill in the garage. Now that I'm here, I'm digging into what it would take to get a mill up and running. Coming up on the time to make a purchase decision (within 6 months).
To get right into it I'm currently trying to decide between a Speedio S1000X and an Okuma M460-VE. The M560-VE is more compelling but after talking it through with Gosiger it flat out won't fit through the door, so it's out.
What I want the mill to do:
- Materials: Mostly aluminum parts, occasionally some copper and stainless (304/316), very rarely tool steel (O1 or A2), lots of Delrin and PEEK.
- Speed: Speed is a bonus but not necessary. I don't need to cut SS or steel fast, but I need to be able to do it with good accuracy and surface finish.
- Rare deep-ish (3-5") pockets in stainless.
- Rigid tapping: Able to rigid tap small (M1-M2) threads without breaking taps left and right due to poor synchronization.
I don't anticipate running production quantities (to me that's more than 1k) of anything unless I get lucky, but this is not the goal. It's primarily a personal prototyping tool for my own projects as well as a way to earn a little on the side supplying engineering teams I've worked in/with over the past several years. 2-3 parts per month will be enough to pay for the financing, and the rather massive tax break doesn't hurt either. But I can pay for the mill with or without any outside work: it's just a bonus.
Brother is what's captured my attention for the last few years. I want one. The options I'm interested in are:
Enter the Okuma. It looks like a fantastic machine, very rigid, excellent controls, but it's just an entire step up in preparation. Similarly optioned it looks to be about $30k more, it weighs nearly double at 15.4k lb, and has higher power requirements. It's already $6k to run a 100A subpanel to the garage and the Okuma needs more, not to mention it's a 6" slab so that's a concern. It's way, way bigger. Everything gets more expensive to make the Okuma work.
The only thing that would make the Okuma worth the stretch is if it can do things the Brother flat out can't do. Full 5th is certainly a nice option to have, but I can't make the argument that it's necessary. What it really comes down to is:
In terms of pricing the Brother kit would probably run about $150k as optioned above although I'm willing to wait for a demo machine. The Okuma looks more like $170-180k. That's not including an additional ~$40k for tax, power, air compressor, tooling, auxiliary equipment, etc. The ability to field-upgrade the Okuma to full 5 if needed is nice, but I can't think of anything I'd *need* it for that couldn't be done with positioning + surfacing. I will be making custom fan blades once in a blue moon (think PC server fan, not turbo impeller) but I don't think it's necessary there either.
There are other machines. Haas is a fair bit cheaper especially with the huge sales going on right now, but I've read almost nothing good about their rotaries here. Hardinge was suggested by Gosiger as a machine to fit this space (V480 or V710) but I know little about them. Plus the work envelope is smaller than the Speedio. The Milltap 700 seems ok but I don't think it'd fit and also has a smaller envelope. Plus I'm nervous about the support (or lack thereof). Yamazen has been continually great and patient with me, and the rep I met from Gosiger was great as well. Anything else worth looking into?
So there you have it. Lots of questions. As always any feedback is greatly appreciated. Anyone who runs any of these machines in Norcal I'd love to pay your shop a visit, along with a case of beer or cigars or whatever you like!
You may remember me from some 5 years ago when I posted a thread about purchasing a Speedio for in-house prototyping for a startup. I got some great advice on that thread (and have read it many times) but sadly, as often happens, we were unable to secure the funding we needed and had to dissolve the business. C'est la vie.
Since then I've gone back to being a company engineer (for now), and the time is right to finally make that CNC purchase after all. Only this time I'm the client.
I just moved into a house here on the west coast, and a big part of the deciding factor was the ability to install a mill in the garage. Now that I'm here, I'm digging into what it would take to get a mill up and running. Coming up on the time to make a purchase decision (within 6 months).
To get right into it I'm currently trying to decide between a Speedio S1000X and an Okuma M460-VE. The M560-VE is more compelling but after talking it through with Gosiger it flat out won't fit through the door, so it's out.
What I want the mill to do:
- Materials: Mostly aluminum parts, occasionally some copper and stainless (304/316), very rarely tool steel (O1 or A2), lots of Delrin and PEEK.
- Speed: Speed is a bonus but not necessary. I don't need to cut SS or steel fast, but I need to be able to do it with good accuracy and surface finish.
- Rare deep-ish (3-5") pockets in stainless.
- Rigid tapping: Able to rigid tap small (M1-M2) threads without breaking taps left and right due to poor synchronization.
I don't anticipate running production quantities (to me that's more than 1k) of anything unless I get lucky, but this is not the goal. It's primarily a personal prototyping tool for my own projects as well as a way to earn a little on the side supplying engineering teams I've worked in/with over the past several years. 2-3 parts per month will be enough to pay for the financing, and the rather massive tax break doesn't hurt either. But I can pay for the mill with or without any outside work: it's just a bonus.
Brother is what's captured my attention for the last few years. I want one. The options I'm interested in are:
- S1000X with 16k BBT spindle
- CTSI interface (I will install the pump myself)
- Probing system
- High accuracy Mode BII
- MPG
- 5th axis rotary that will swing a ~3" x 3" x 10" part. Many options here that all seem "good" but not really sure what the practical day-to-day differences are. Nikken, Sankyo, Koma, Yukiwa, etc. Nikken is probably the highest reviewed around here but has "middle of the road" indexing accuracy specs compared to the others. Are they just super conservative on these?
Enter the Okuma. It looks like a fantastic machine, very rigid, excellent controls, but it's just an entire step up in preparation. Similarly optioned it looks to be about $30k more, it weighs nearly double at 15.4k lb, and has higher power requirements. It's already $6k to run a 100A subpanel to the garage and the Okuma needs more, not to mention it's a 6" slab so that's a concern. It's way, way bigger. Everything gets more expensive to make the Okuma work.
The only thing that would make the Okuma worth the stretch is if it can do things the Brother flat out can't do. Full 5th is certainly a nice option to have, but I can't make the argument that it's necessary. What it really comes down to is:
- Surfacing. The zeigeist seems to be that the Okuma is hands down better at surfacing. SuperNURBS sounds amazing and very expensive, but it's an option if ever needed in the future. The mode B parameters on the Brother are a continuing source of confusion and frustration based on the threads here (and I've read them all twice). Has anything changed here on the Brother front?
- Tool hangout. It will be a rare part where I need to machine a 5" pocket in stainless, but I'd like to be capable of doing it. If the Okuma can do it in 1 minute and the big-plus Brother can do it in 20, that's fine by me.
- Working with 3+2/4+1. The Brother doesn't have dynamic work offsets or tool centerpoint control. I'm (possibly unreasonably) concerned by this. I'm curious to what extent this is necessary to avoid 5 axis setups becoming exercises in frustration. Those of you who run these setups without DWO or TCPC, do you miss it? I see the value on real 5x machines with large tables, where you can have multiple fixtures setup in random locations. My 5th would be used for single-piece flow type of work.
- I'm confused by the Brother manuals which state that the control can move 4 axes simultaneously for "linear" moves, but only 2 for "circular moves." What does that mean in practice? I specifically asked Yamazen about this and it sounds like you can do 4 axis machining such as profiling a part while turning a single rotary axis, or for instance cutting an arbitrary circular chamfer by using the side of an end mill to cut while one rotary axis spins. Essentially to cut one-off "lathe" parts without a lathe. Or for instance interpolating a slot that wraps around a cylinder. Can someone help clarify what exactly this spec means?
- Surface finish. There is a lot that goes into surface finish, and I don't need a mirror finish on everything. However, I should be capable of hitting ~4-8rms finishes when called out on faces, bores, and o-ring grooves. If it's just down to tooling/process optimization and either machine is capable that's fine by me.
- Work envelope. Short Z aside, the Brother has the highest work envelope:machine size ratio I've found.
In terms of pricing the Brother kit would probably run about $150k as optioned above although I'm willing to wait for a demo machine. The Okuma looks more like $170-180k. That's not including an additional ~$40k for tax, power, air compressor, tooling, auxiliary equipment, etc. The ability to field-upgrade the Okuma to full 5 if needed is nice, but I can't think of anything I'd *need* it for that couldn't be done with positioning + surfacing. I will be making custom fan blades once in a blue moon (think PC server fan, not turbo impeller) but I don't think it's necessary there either.
There are other machines. Haas is a fair bit cheaper especially with the huge sales going on right now, but I've read almost nothing good about their rotaries here. Hardinge was suggested by Gosiger as a machine to fit this space (V480 or V710) but I know little about them. Plus the work envelope is smaller than the Speedio. The Milltap 700 seems ok but I don't think it'd fit and also has a smaller envelope. Plus I'm nervous about the support (or lack thereof). Yamazen has been continually great and patient with me, and the rep I met from Gosiger was great as well. Anything else worth looking into?
So there you have it. Lots of questions. As always any feedback is greatly appreciated. Anyone who runs any of these machines in Norcal I'd love to pay your shop a visit, along with a case of beer or cigars or whatever you like!
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