Buying first machine. Questions about Speedio vs. Okuma. - Page 11
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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Or the VF-2...I'm with Andy on this one. A cursory search shows PM isn't overflowing with praise for Fryer machines, nevermind support.
    We have a Fryer toolroom lathe (ET-18) and used to have an old VB-50 mill.
    Don't buy one. Trust me. Don't!

    Both machines had a rapid speed of a screaming 250 ipm. The lathe has had recurrent HMI / PLC issues and would freeze up or crash. We had to send in the computer to Fryer once to get it fixed and it was never quite the same since. Next, the touchscreen went out and had to be replaced ($2500 for just the screen!). We had to get a third party out because Fryer techs were booked for 2-3 weeks.

    Next post:

    FS: Fryer Easy Turn lathe w/ Siemens Touch 2100 control. Motivated seller!!

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  3. #202
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    In all the discussion of purchasing, the economics of having your own shop, the economics of 5-axis machines for things where 3-axis plus fixtures would likely do, I recall this quote from a very smart and very senior guy I worked with at Microsoft ...

    "I would pay DOUBLE if it would get here tomorow and work when it got here!"

    As that project went on I began to agree, and more. Sometimes timeliness is worth more than double....

    Most of the time 5-axis isn't about "is it possible" or even "is this efficient production" - it's about cutting the list of fixtures and the like that have to be made before starting way way down....

    (Doesn't Brother make an ultra-clever 4+1 machine though? With turning? If the envelope is big enough that could be a real winner in this contexts too - I'll note I've never seen one.)

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  5. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    In all the discussion of purchasing, the economics of having your own shop, the economics of 5-axis machines for things where 3-axis plus fixtures would likely do, I recall this quote from a very smart and very senior guy I worked with at Microsoft ...

    "I would pay DOUBLE if it would get here tomorow and work when it got here!"

    As that project went on I began to agree, and more. Sometimes timeliness is worth more than double....

    Most of the time 5-axis isn't about "is it possible" or even "is this efficient production" - it's about cutting the list of fixtures and the like that have to be made before starting way way down....

    (Doesn't Brother make an ultra-clever 4+1 machine though? With turning? If the envelope is big enough that could be a real winner in this contexts too - I'll note I've never seen one.)
    That’s the M140, which I recommended earlier.

    Capable, cheaper, better quality.

    If I could only have one machine in my garage, that would be it.

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  7. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    (Doesn't Brother make an ultra-clever 4+1 machine though? With turning? If the envelope is big enough that could be a real winner in this contexts too - I'll note I've never seen one.)
    They do, I actually saw one in Yamazen's Atlanta showroom years ago. Sounds like a Terminator when it changes tools. The work envelope is very small though. They have the M300X3 which is bigger but I haven't priced it. Still small compared to either the UMC or VF-2. Turning would be great but I don't really need it yet. The VF-2 and UMC500 both provide the best balance of 3x/5x capabilities for the price as far as I can see.

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    By pure coincidence and bouncing off the HAAS HSK thread...




    Ductile iron
    ~ 40taper maybe even 50 taper (as has been suggested to me)

    How well does this go on a 30 taper machine ?

    lower end torque useful for "tougher"/ more difficult materials.

    Horses for courses.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________


    Makino PS 65 is not too expensive , can be had for $140K a lot thrown in but not 5 axis. (has better contouring now).

    I would have thought Enshu-s would be more garage friendly also , for a while they were figuring out a dedicated 5 axis vertical with Mits control for about $175K they may have shelved that project.

    Fanuc Robodrill + good 5 axis unit will set you back $140K ish.

    If you were to stretch to $200K ish then there would be quite a few more 5 axis options for you. - but then you'd have to buy even more equipment... lol.

    HAAS really have it nailed down for sub $145K 5 axis verticals.

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    This is a popular set up on S1000 and S700 Speedios

    5axis-vises-s1000.jpg

    Rotary center height is 135mm so can swing 10" part. Rotary spindle face when vertical is 180mm so a good amount of space above it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    This is a popular set up on S1000 and S700 Speedios

    5axis-vises-s1000.jpg

    Rotary center height is 135mm so can swing 10" part. Rotary spindle face when vertical is 180mm so a good amount of space above it.
    So much room for activities!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post

    Brother S1000X
    Attachment 282108
    Can I ask where you're getting cad models for these machines? Just curious as a S500X1 model would be nice to have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    Can I ask where you're getting cad models for these machines? Just curious as a S500X1 model would be nice to have.
    The Haas models are on their site. Yamazen sent over an S1000X1 STEP file. I'm sure Andy (2outof3) or Frank (brotherfrank) in this thread can get you something quickly.

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    Quick update. I'm talking to an Ellison rep about Doosan machines, but I have the sneaking suspicion that none of them will fit and that they'll be a little pricier than I'd like.

    The best options remain a VF-2SSYT + TRT210, or a UMC500 if the landlord agrees to let me install a bigger door. Going to chat with her this week. Not sure if Haas will extend their discounts due to the COVID situation, but either way I want to get moving on this quickly.

    USBank said they probably couldn't do the financing which is disappointing. Curious to hear any experiences with this from sole proprietors. I've been a sole proprietorship since 2014 but naturally the amount of income that brings in depends on how busy I am with my day job. Last couple years it's been "very." Even so the finance payment would be about 15% of my monthly income but it seems machine financiers still get skittish when the asset being financed isn't the thing making the payments. I'm going to give them a call this week and see if we can work something out.

    Talking to a Gosiger rep as well about a Hardinge V710. Any opinions on these? The rep says it's "much better than Haas," which of course they'll say that. Trying to get options pricing right now. They come with either Fanuc 0i-MF or Mitsubishi M80 controls. This forum has taught me to dread Fanuc controls, not sure how the M80 stacks up.

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    ^^^ Just for completeness, almost what machine(s) in your garage.

    I kinda have this sneaking suspicion that HAAS may be working on a new set of "tool room" machines that are more capable and garage friendly.
    (different from mini mill and VF and TM ) but with built in 5 axis capability beyond slapping a trunnion onto a TM longer table mill.
    __________________________________________________ __

    Financing, usually Machine tool financing specialist recommended by your vendor. But be wary of getting yourself into over buying and over financing.

    Banks probably are not the place to go.

    Having some sort of collateral is handy but still dangerous.

    GOOD thing about HAAS is their resale value, so there are nearly always buyers lined up / good second hand market , so if your machine needs to be pre-emtively sold before being repoed (sp) then maybe you don't even loose $.

    Leases are possible but IMO really expensive - it's not juts a $1 buyout and remove your machine from your floor when you are "Done". Seems more awkward and expensive than they might make out - Makino has leasing scheme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    <snip>

    Talking to a Gosiger rep as well about a Hardinge V710. Any opinions on these? The rep says it's "much better than Haas," which of course they'll say that. Trying to get options pricing right now. They come with either Fanuc 0i-MF or Mitsubishi M80 controls. This forum has taught me to dread Fanuc controls, not sure how the M80 stacks up.

    There is one horror story about untangleable / completely screwed up tool changing on a smaller Hardinge V 710 type thingy... I'd have to dig it up.

    Seems Hardinge are doing more with the Mits control front side and backside + spindle drives.

    Hardinge have a smaller 5 axis vertical mainly for 4+1 (part of the V series V320 5F ) not sure how garage friendly it is.

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    Just got a quote for a Doosan 5700S w/ Fanuc 0i-M control. Looks like an incredible machine. Options are reasonably priced.

    $112k base pric for 30 tools, $115k for 40. That includes...

    - 230psi TSC + air-through spindle
    - Chip augers
    - 15k/25hp Big-plus CAT40 spindle
    - Spindle chiller
    - Roller ways on all axes

    Add $7k for a Renishaw OMP600 probe and tool setter. Glass scales are available for $5.5k per axis. Nice to know if they'd ever be needed in the future.

    The only thing not cheap is the 5th axis rotaries. Ranging from ~50k-75k. Ouch.

    ...if only the damn thing fit. I'd be all over it. They need 95" to get it in the door, and the height is ~117." I am not at all opposed to punching a hole in the ceiling to fit the spindle, if possible. Drywall is cheap.

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    If your doing any sort of design/engineering work, your daft to be a sole proprietor.

    All stop.

    Have your lawyer make you articles and file for an LLC. Before you do anything else. Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Just got a quote for a Doosan 5700S w/ Fanuc 0i-M control. Looks like an incredible machine. Options are reasonably priced.

    $112k base pric for 30 tools, $115k for 40. That includes...

    - 230psi TSC + air-through spindle
    - Chip augers
    - 15k/25hp Big-plus CAT40 spindle
    - Spindle chiller
    - Roller ways on all axes

    Add $7k for a Renishaw OMP600 probe and tool setter. Glass scales are available for $5.5k per axis. Nice to know if they'd ever be needed in the future.

    The only thing not cheap is the 5th axis rotaries. Ranging from ~50k-75k. Ouch.

    ...if only the damn thing fit. I'd be all over it. They need 95" to get it in the door, and the height is ~117." I am not at all opposed to punching a hole in the ceiling to fit the spindle, if possible. Drywall is cheap.
    Looks nice prices not bad

    Vertical Machining Centers | Ellison Technologies

    If you ^^^ scroll down to the bottom they have a 40 taper small bridge style machine(s) from NTC Japan ~ Thought that was interesting , 40 taper bridge and small. (through Ellison ). -N400V

    Machining Centers | NTC America Corporation

    NTC^^ America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Have your lawyer make you articles and file for an LLC. Before you do anything else. Period.
    That's the plan.

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    Title : "Buying first machine. Questions about Speedio vs. Okuma "

    The NTC 400V would be the bastard love child of an Okuma and a Speedio and it would fit in your garage. *

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________

    * Caveat I know very little about the NTC 400V (other than small 40 taper Japanese bridge style machine ) NTC build a lot of stuff for the semiconductor industry and are also good specialists with micro-machining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    .......This forum has taught me to dread Fanuc controls......
    Why dread a control that will still have factory , third party, or ebay parts support 15+ years from now? Last I heard Haas's solution for their old controls is to sell you a retrofit for ~$30k.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Why dread a control that will still have factory , third party, or ebay parts support 15+ years from now? Last I heard Haas's solution for their old controls is to sell you a retrofit for ~$30k.
    15 years of frustration (even minor annoyance) isn't worth it to avoid a hypothetical support issue 15 years from now. If the machine has done its job in the interim I'll be happy to sell it for scrap at that point.

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  30. #220
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    These days it's like "Does it work"... ? I don't care what it is... (control wise). Does it cut straight ?

    But for 5 axis HAAS control is sloooooooowwwwwwwweeeeeerrrrr .

    Current Fanuc offerings are not too bad at all + HMI layer + if you are doing CAD/CAM anyway.

    Heidenhain is nice but not so well understood and supported in the USA and ADDS a lot to the price of a new machine if you have a FANUC option instead much cheaper.


    One of the major appeals of the FANUC control if you put in the time to get a good handle on the ins and outs it is also a massive gateway to some really good iron on the second hand market that can potentially save you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    Different machines from a HAAS vertical.

    Fanuc more advanced controls have 600 block look ahead + nano smoothing and can handle bidirectional read and control of scales on all axes rotary and linear... (HAAS is like 80 block look ahead and can't read three linear scales for 3d contouring.).

    Maybe not relevant to your applications @SVFeingold i.e. HAAS control good enuff and clearer more intuitive (now touch screen).

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

    @SVFeingold any like or dislike for HURCO ? [Not sure what they have in the category of "Garage friendly" .].
    Last edited by cameraman; 03-25-2020 at 12:35 AM. Reason: Brain glitching out 'cuz source code based on Java


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