Buying first machine. Questions about Speedio vs. Okuma. - Page 13
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 13 of 14 FirstFirst ... 311121314 LastLast
Results 241 to 260 of 267
  1. #241
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maine
    Posts
    1,096
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    166
    Likes (Received)
    519

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    When I was in UK they had a system that was funded by the European Union called an E-Space.

    Purpose designed for startups and tech incubators.

    Basically really nice commercial units (well built) on different floors with conference facilities + receptionist communal lunch area etc. Adequate power and height for high tech light to medium industrial work. [Admittedly it was in a more rural / deprived area of the country - hence the reason for the EU development grant for the "E-Space" facilities but yet still an hour from Cambridge.]. Short term leases. Excellent compound security and security of individual units. One could expand or contract easily as one needed. Rent was very reasonable. I met and hired some folks that happened to be working in adjoining units working on technical projects that I still work with nearly fifteen years later or more.

    I have often wondered if I should ever attempt the "Landlord " thing like an E-space and work out of a two or thee units myself. Kind of a pipe dream.

    There don't seem to be such gov. funding for such projects in the USA so much ?

    And now the UK has Brexited (mostly) but such facilities are still running without financial loss to the local council.
    I'm in one of those, but we also have a shared machine shop (manual mill, lathe, Prototrak bed mill, saws, etc), weld shop, wood shop, 3D printer, composites layup room, and oven. It's a great setup. I think setting one up from scratch would be an expensive proposition. In my case, the state got the building and land for free from the Navy, and they've still sunk a bunch of money into it.

  2. Likes cameraman liked this post
  3. #242
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,395
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3858
    Likes (Received)
    977

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DanielG View Post
    I'm in one of those, but we also have a shared machine shop (manual mill, lathe, Prototrak bed mill, saws, etc), weld shop, wood shop, 3D printer, composites layup room, and oven. It's a great setup. I think setting one up from scratch would be an expensive proposition. In my case, the state got the building and land for free from the Navy, and they've still sunk a bunch of money into it.
    That sounds really nice... Something has to be done

  4. #243
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    137
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Kinda odd how this thread has inadvertently built a really good case for Tormach's "Market space".
    Meh...I don't see how a Tormach is materially different. As far as the various terminology is concerned it's the same kind of "thing" as the Haas. I sincerely doubt the city council, or neighbors are concerned with the rigidity of the mill or the spindle HP or whatever in a dispute.

  5. #244
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,395
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3858
    Likes (Received)
    977

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Meh...I don't see how a Tormach is materially different. As far as the various terminology is concerned it's the same kind of "thing" as the Haas. I sincerely doubt the city council, or neighbors are concerned with the rigidity of the mill or the spindle HP or whatever in a dispute.
    Much easier to hide and much quieter.

    It is kinda labeled as Hobby machine.

    You are using the machine to "Learn".

    I'm not saying it's a super duper machine but depending on parts you need to do / tolerances it can work for less $

    (over a full size second hand machine that might not fit in your garage for similar $)

    Not what I would use for commercial applications though / contracts with your previous contacts (necessarily).

    You won't go into debt.

    You don't have to tear up your landlady's garage.

    You don't have to "Brick" a UMC 500 into your land lady's house ~ Get a new/ different job offer move to a different location.

    Machine is easy to move.

    Plugs into the wall and you can do 4th axis work at least.

    I know it's not what you want :-)

    Disguise it as your beer refrigerator (although those are probably outlawed in California now ) ?

    Spray it yellow and paint giant Daisy's all over it.



    __________________________________________________ __________________________


    @SVFeingold How close are your neighbors ?

    - Wondering what new machines might be released for IMTS 2020 (or would have been ?)… That would or will work.
    - Are we still 5 axis or die ?
    - I'm thinking multiple spindles / more than one little machine ?
    - Manual machines are they allowed ? / retrofits ? Bedmill ?

  6. #245
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,395
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3858
    Likes (Received)
    977

    Default

    @SVFeingold

    'ere whaddabout

    High-Speed Industrial CNC Machines - DATRON Dynamics, Inc.

    DATRON ?

    or

    V8 5-Axis CNC Mill | MDA Precion

    MDA precision ? (Interested in your thoughts ?)


    I would have thought the above would be garage friendly + neighbor friendly ?


    Smaller FADAL ? (Seen 5 axis trunnions on the bigger FADAL mills, don't know about smaller).

  7. #246
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Colorado
    Posts
    3,395
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3858
    Likes (Received)
    977

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Hi all!

    <snip>

    What I want the mill to do:

    - Materials: Mostly aluminum parts, occasionally some copper and stainless (304/316), very rarely tool steel (O1 or A2), lots of Delrin and PEEK.


    - Speed: Speed is a bonus but not necessary. I don't need to cut SS or steel fast, but I need to be able to do it with good accuracy and surface finish.

    - Rare deep-ish (3-5") pockets in stainless.

    - Rigid tapping: Able to rigid tap small (M1-M2) threads without breaking taps left and right due to poor synchronization.

    I don't anticipate running production quantities (to me that's more than 1k) of anything unless I get lucky, but this is not the goal.

    It's primarily a personal prototyping tool for my own projects

    as well as a way to earn a little on the side supplying engineering teams I've worked in/with over the past several years. 2-3 parts per month will be enough to pay for the financing, and the rather massive tax break doesn't hurt either. But I can pay for the mill with or without any outside work: it's just a bonus.<snip>

    [*]Surfacing. The zeigeist <snip>


    [*<snip>
    My 5th would be used for single-piece flow type of work.

    [*]<snip> ?
    [*]Surface finish.

    There is a lot that goes into surface finish, and I don't need a mirror finish on everything. However, I should be capable of hitting ~4-8rms finishes when called out on faces, bores, and o-ring grooves. If it's just down to tooling/process optimization and either machine is capable that's fine by me.
    [*]Work envelope. Short Z aside, the Brother has the highest work envelope:machine size ratio I've found.[/LIST]<snip>
    [Snips and emphasis added, no alteration of original remaining text .].


    OK ,

    Materials Can a DATRON cut stainless ? (now ?)

    I think for Aluminum it can do your deepish pockets.

    Size of work volume versus size of machine.

    your emphasis on surface finish.

    Garage friendly

    Design oriented.


    Good for plastics/ polymers etc.

    Super easy control and programming etc.

    Kinda pricey.

  8. #247
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,009
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    237
    Likes (Received)
    648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    If your doing any sort of design/engineering work, your daft to be a sole proprietor.

    All stop.

    Have your lawyer make you articles and file for an LLC. Before you do anything else. Period.
    Just wanted to touch on this... a corporation can be a sole proprietorship, and many are.

  9. #248
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    137
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @SVFeingold How close are your neighbors ?

    - Wondering what new machines might be released for IMTS 2020 (or would have been ?)… That would or will work.
    - Are we still 5 axis or die ?
    - I'm thinking multiple spindles / more than one little machine ?
    - Manual machines are they allowed ? / retrofits ? Bedmill ?
    Pretty close. But at a recent meetup they said they haven't heard anything from my house while I'm watching movies and blasting the speakers and two 18" subwoofers so... I'm leaving room in the budget for sound-deadening anyway. Probably around 3-5k. Both for the mill itself and all of the walls/garage door. That should cut out pretty much all of the objectionable noise from within.

    5-axis: yes. But it might be easier to go the VF-2 + 5th rotary route vs. a dedicated 5x. The UMC500 would be great but it's either...expand the garage door or pay stupid money to reassemble it. Having said that, I feel reasonably confident that I could do this realignment/reinstallation myself if Haas will give me the service docs for performing this alignment. I spent 2 years designing and commissioning new production equipment, including all kinds of pain in the ass alignment jobs. Re-aligning a tool carousel shouldn't be rocket science.

    More than one machine isn't really needed. I'd rather have a single more capable machine.

    Bedmill, nah. Manual, nah. Kinda defeats the point as it doesn't let me prototype the kinds of parts I'd like nearly as easily. As for the Datron, they are super expensive, limited work envelope, far less rigid than a VF-2, and they sound loud as all hell from all the demo videos.

  10. #249
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    129
    Likes (Received)
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    Just wanted to touch on this... a corporation can be a sole proprietorship, and many are.
    Huh? Can you elaborate? You can be sole prop., LLC, S corp. You get to pick one, not two. Edit, I know you can be an LLC and taxed as a coporation, maybe that's what you're talking about. But for the state, you register as one type.

    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post

    Prohibited uses in R-1 (Single-family) zoning district.
    The following uses are prohibited:
    1.Commercial and industrial uses (except those allowed by a home occupation permit);
    .
    .
    .
    5.Any use which is obnoxious or offensive or creates a nuisance to the occupants or visitors of adjacent buildings or premises by reason of the emissions of dust, fumes, glare, heat, liquids, noise, odor...


    So, the garage thing should be dead now (I hope). Maybe rent commercial space a state over or far inland? I knew a guy who worked in PA and flew to Chicago every weekend to see his family as wife had a good job there. He did it for years.

  11. #250
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    137
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    So, the garage thing should be dead now (I hope). Maybe rent commercial space a state over or far inland? I knew a guy who worked in PA and flew to Chicago every weekend to see his family as wife had a good job there. He did it for years.
    Wait are you suggesting I quit my job, rent a space in a different state, and fly in to see the SO on weekends? Really? Extending the cycle time on a design from "walk to the garage" to "buy a flight, drive to the airport, rent a hotel, and fly to another state" is absurd. That completely defeats the point.

    I don't consider it dead at all. What qualifies as a "commercial" use? Design services were already greenlighted as an allowable home based business. I don't have a store, I don't sell anything out of my home, I don't have customers visiting. What is an "industrial" use? Is my bench grinder industrial? Drill press? Welder? If a mill is automatically industrial then why not any of the other tools people have at home? Is a 3D printer industrial?

    If the code was "whatever we feel like allowing" that'd be one thing. These words have definitions, which are likewise subject to interpretation.

    Whether a use is "obnoxious or offensive" seems to relate to what leaves the space. If there is excessive noise and I'm spewing fumes out the front door, that would qualify. Overall these things seem pretty easy to avoid.

  12. #251
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Near Seattle
    Posts
    4,980
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    3445
    Likes (Received)
    1424

    Default

    Actually, the reality is this (and you likely already know this):
    a. If you are careful, it likely never comes up.
    b. If things go sideways and it does come up, you'll want good lawyers and good arguments on your side - being careful about never being a 'store front' business could for example be key.
    c. It could be you'll eventually be forced to move that activity elsewhere regardless.

    Always remember that with these kinds of rules,
    SOME of them are about legit complaints (do you want Metallica practicing full volume on the property line at 3am every morning?),
    SOME of them are about prissy NIMBYism (HOA nonsense),
    SOME of them are about MONEY - as in TAX MONEY. They might as well say "if you are making money from a business you HAVE to give us a cut to fund services, and we enforce that by making you be in a certain area where we can harvest that tax".

    Always have an eye out for a workable commercial space (quick to get to, etc) because with the right zoning such spaces cure all of these at once.
    (I wrote way earlier that my shop, in a place zoned for what I do, is next a trafficky stinky winery and stinky roofing contractor - nobody bothers me.)

  13. #252
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    2,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1545
    Likes (Received)
    1478

    Default

    There have been a couple of garage start ups in that area that ended up okay. Hewlett Packard and Apple to name two.

  14. Likes SVFeingold, bryan_machine liked this post
  15. #253
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    137
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Always have an eye out for a workable commercial space (quick to get to, etc) because with the right zoning such spaces cure all of these at once.
    I check about 1-2x a week, but either nothing good or nothing remotely affordable. 80k/year, no thanks. Any place I have to drive an hour to get to is likewise simply not worth it. Unless I move all my stuff there and basically live there I am losing the benefit of having a tight loop. The EE lab is 20 steps away. Bedroom is 10.

  16. Likes bryan_machine liked this post
  17. #254
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    129
    Likes (Received)
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Wait are you suggesting I quit my job, rent a space in a different state, and fly in to see the SO on weekends? Really?
    I'm just trying to think outside the box. Dumping 20k into a rental seems absurd to me. Floor, electrical, etc. 20k buys a lot of plane or train tickets to somewhere cheaper. Get a laptop and program while traveling. Not sure what "SO" means.

    You might be fine, it's just well past my risk threshold. If you owned, I'd say go for it. You could rack up some serious bucks if your plan goes south: fees, eviction, lawyers, moving again, maybe lose the machine. And when zoning or code compliance writes you up, it will be their interpretation of your activities, not yours.

    Lots of people to cheer you on here. In the end, you're the one holding the bag. Your balls are clearly much huger than mine Good luck.

    HP or Apple didn't start with a 10 thousand pound VMC in a rental garage. Probably more like a couple soldering irons and oscilloscopes.

    I did a couple years in a garage with smaller machines. It was great, but I really like being in commercial space better. I very much like NOT living 2 minutes away from work. You'll think the opposite until you do it for a while, at least that's been my experience.

  18. #255
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    137
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    It was great, but I really like being in commercial space better. I very much like NOT living 2 minutes away from work. You'll think the opposite until you do it for a while, at least that's been my experience.
    Eh, I'm used to working at home. I don't mind it as long as it's for myself. My day job is still 30 minutes away.

  19. #256
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,009
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    237
    Likes (Received)
    648

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    Huh? Can you elaborate? You can be sole prop., LLC, S corp. You get to pick one, not two. Edit, I know you can be an LLC and taxed as a coporation, maybe that's what you're talking about. But for the state, you register as one type.
    An LLC with a single member is a "disregarded entity" and treated as a sole proprietorship for tax purposes while retaining other benefits of the corporation. You file annually on your 1040 under Schedule C (which is for sole proprietorships).

    At least that's what my tax attorney tells me.

    In marital property states (like here in WI) joint ownership retains the disregarded entity status.

    I think you can file as a corporation as a single-member LLC if you want to. I'm not sure why one would or wouldn't.

  20. #257
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    547
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    129
    Likes (Received)
    157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Finsta View Post
    An LLC with a single member is a "disregarded entity" and treated as a sole proprietorship for tax purposes while retaining other benefits of the corporation. You file annually on your 1040 under Schedule C (which is for sole proprietorships).

    At least that's what my tax attorney tells me.

    In marital property states (like here in WI) joint ownership retains the disregarded entity status.

    I think you can file as a corporation as a single-member LLC if you want to. I'm not sure why one would or wouldn't.
    Right, that's just with the IRS. Everything else will go by how you are registered with the state. I agree with Fal Grunt :

    >>>
    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt :
    If your doing any sort of design/engineering work, your daft to be a sole proprietor.

    All stop.

    Have your lawyer make you articles and file for an LLC. Before you do anything else. Period.
    >>>

  21. #258
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    2,020
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1545
    Likes (Received)
    1478

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Eh, I'm used to working at home. I don't mind it as long as it's for myself. My day job is still 30 minutes away.
    It is hard for many to understand the culture of the Bay area. Houses that cost $60,000 elsewhere are $2 million. As in normal 1800 square foot suburbia. Not rock star houses. The neighborhoods are full of tech employees who work flex hours as a normal thing. They have an entrepreneurial spirit in their day gigs. I am also a vote for the LLC. Probably half the houses in your neighborhood have some sort of LLC for a design or engineering firm associated with the address.

    I have not weighed in much but I am going to go back and push for your first thought.

    A Brother gets you started. You have to make zero adjustments to the property except a Phase Perfect. No floor to worry about, no doors to adjust. If you have to move, it is simple. It has been done many times. The machines are not that loud and sip electricity. They are also accurate. They also work every effin day unless you do something dumb. While it is not prime for 5 inch side load on end mills, that is not something I see every day and BROTHERFRANK has even done that. Enough sales pitch

  22. Likes coffeetek liked this post
  23. #259
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    87
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    64

    Default

    OP, I'm in a somewhat similar place as you; Bay Area software engineer by day, prototype/design work off-hours, occasionally offloading work from friends if they get backed up.

    For many good reasons - which have already been said - you will want to start a LLC.

    Personally, I would not want to do anything in a rented place where I had to do "real work" to get it to happen. I am defining "real work" as "something I could do myself in a day or two and be able to take with me when I move." Installing a PhasePerfect is about where I'd draw the line. Here's why -- you are exposing your landlord to a lot of risk over and above the normal residential tenant, who uses their garage to store snowboards in the summer. Lots of neighborhoods are fussy about this kind of stuff and it only takes one person being an ass to make your landlord's life miserable. Ripping out a garage floor and re-pouring a 6" slab is going to take months, cost tens of thousands of dollars, expose everyone to headaches with the city & county permit offices, and is generally way beyond what most landlords are going to put up with. And if you decide to buy a house and move, even in five years, you're out all the money; the improvement has very little value to most people.

    If you do end up buying property, and find yourself with compliant neighbors (or you can keep them bribed with free machining work), go as wild as you want. Again, expect it to be way more expensive and way slower than you might think.

    Until then, I would keep it as small and "light on the land" as you can get away with and not be miserable. (I got a lot done on a Tormach 1100 in a friend's garage, before I bought a place.) Anyways, once shelter-in-place is over, you're more than welcome to come visit.

  24. #260
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    137
    Likes (Received)
    52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by trochoidalpath View Post
    Until then, I would keep it as small and "light on the land" as you can get away with and not be miserable. (I got a lot done on a Tormach 1100 in a friend's garage, before I bought a place.) Anyways, once shelter-in-place is over, you're more than welcome to come visit.
    I agree. I'm certainly not considering repouring a slab though some have suggested that. The floor should be plenty fine for a VF-2 with no changes needed. The garage door expansion, after sleeping on it, is likewise not worth it for a UMC500 (nor is paying 15k for them to break it down and rebuild it).

    The permanent changes to the property should be limited to the 100A subpanel. I totally hear you about renting vs. owning but in all actuality, you are not getting the money back that you spent on a floor (or whatever else) whether you own the place or not. Vanishingly few buyers know or care how thick your garage floor is. The only real factor is how much time you spend using that stuff you improved before you move. You are spending the money either way. It's gone. If I spend $5k on a subpanel and move after two years I will consider that "worth it." The actual financials of buying vs. renting don't make a strong case for buying a house just so your 5-10k of non-recoverable improvements are for "your" house, IMHO. If I had $300k for a down payment I wouldn't be looking for financing.

    And yes, I'd love to see your shop when things go back to semi-normal in a month or 12.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •