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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhearons View Post
    Please don’t forget to honestly appraise the situation in your neighborhood. Many people will go full NIMBY at the drop of a hat and will happily torpedo this project when the riggers show up.
    I had considered this. For what it's worth I exclusively looked for a house without an HOA. I'll bake some cookies for the neighbors and offer to make them CNC trinkets.

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    I would really, really love to. There are two things that stop me. First, obviously, is the cost. Not just a mill but the prep and tool-up. I'd be looking at minimum like 300k with the Matsuura and that's just out of reach right now. The other is that I have no need to run large 5-axis parts.

    Again, the Haas UMC 500 SS. Fits under your ceiling requirements (103" tall operation height, 99" install height). If you can live with 12k RPM, you're looking at $129k with TSC prep. Bumping that bad boy up to the 15k and it is another $10k.

    Even if you add the chop conveyor and 15k spindle, you're at $146k. IDK why you wound entertain a YT machine with the UMC500SS at those prices. A 3 axis machine with a 5 axis dingus bolted onto the table will never have the accuracy (no scales), dynamics, or overall quality of a machine designed from the ground up as a true 5 axis mill.

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    Even if you add the chop conveyor and 15k spindle, you're at $146k. IDK why you wound entertain a YT machine with the UMC500SS at those prices.
    You're right, it's much shorter than I thought it was! Here we enter the next problem: the door opening is a hair over 89.5", and expanding it isn't an option. Hell even with the M460 it'd require removing the z-axis motor and some sheet metal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    You're right, it's much shorter than I thought it was! Here we enter the next problem: the door opening is a hair over 89.5", and expanding it isn't an option. Hell even with the M460 it'd require removing the z-axis motor and some sheet metal.
    I would call Selway, but I would think the top cover and tool changer could be removed, along with the standard tricks used by riggers to get these machines in-place.

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    How come expanding it is not an option? It would make life a lot easier if you were able to get a little extra height!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aarongough View Post
    How come expanding it is not an option? It would make life a lot easier if you were able to get a little extra height!
    It would, but I'm not thrilled about spending another $5-10k to get that done. Plus, I don't own the house.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    It would, but I'm not thrilled about spending another $5-10k to get that done. Plus, I don't own the house.
    Ah, I just assumed you owned the place as you're already talking about making some fairly serious modifications regarding the new panel!

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    @SVFeingold

    Have you seen the newer DMP 70 5 axis machine ? Just pivoting of Gkoenig's "5 axis thesis"

    It would fit your: Garage

    It would fit your: Work volume.

    It would fit your: Surface finishes other tolerances + deeper pockets.

    It can be automated with the WH3 robot arm drawer thing. even the 3" 3" by 10" requirement.

    Northern California ---> Davis DMG Mori.

    It might not fit your budget ?

    I'm waiting on a quote … Still waiting … waiting but, I'm not going to proffer a guess price.

    The drill tap 700 was very problematic but DMG MORI have some sort of track record of making a better machine after 'effing up an earlier model.

    @SVFeingold I'b be interested in what you think and find ?

    It has linear scales and Siemens control + sim 5 axis DDRT (should be of the order of 5 arc seconds repeatability on both rotary axes) type drives (Siemens control being easy to pick up / more self explanatory).

    Just a thought.

    Ohhhh and If memory serves me right 11KW 24,000 rpm spindle if you want it or higher torque 24K rpm spindle or more robust 10 k spindle (better lower end torque) for a 30 taper dual contact or HSK 40 spindle.

    Critically ----> Spindle chiller and thermal cooling of DDRT type motors and bearings trucks and other components.

    Better all round thermal control + scales … So maybe perfect climate control in your garage may not be necessary year round ?

    Machine / brochure claims it can cut Titanium like an impeller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @SVFeingold

    Have you seen the newer DMP 70 5 axis machine ? Just pivoting of Gkoenig's "5 axis thesis"
    I have not. Let me know what they tell you as far as pricing goes.

    I'm really not sure a dedicated 5x machine is the right call. As far as I can see it, I'll lose more by having smaller travels than I'll gain by the ability to make larger/more accurate 5x parts unless I step up to a larger mill that can handle both. The UMC750 is about the right envelope, but it isn't gonna fit. The main driver for 5x is rapid prototyping. All the parts my former teams (who I'd hope to supply from time to time) make are either large 3x parts, or small parts that could be cut in fewer setups on a 5x. A dedicated machine is great, but loses me the ability to machine larger 3x parts at a given price point.

    Flexibility is at a premium here. If I get super lucky and get enough work to justify more machines or a larger space, that'd be wonderful, but until then I need to have flexibility within the confines of the requirements I listed. Looking back through some of my own old parts made on those teams, and their envelopes, we have...

    An R26 x 18mm D2 part.
    A 480 x 90 x 35mm MIC-6 part, machined on 4 sides.
    A 484 x 120 x 30mm MIC-6 part, machined on all sides.
    A 430 x 64 x 350mm MIC-6 part, with about 90% of the material pocketed out.
    A 64 x 38 x 100mm PEEK part, machined on all sides.
    A 620 x 85 x 36mm delrin part, machined on 4 sides.
    A R160mm x 35mm SS304 flange.

    Not that this is exhaustive or necessarily predictive, rather an example of the types of parts I typically work on. The parts that would most benefit from 5x tend to be small. OTOH, I don't think any of the dedicated 5x machines in my price range will swing a 600mm part.

    As gkoenig pointed out a more hacky 5x bolt-on solution will be less accurate, but OTOH the precision required for a smaller swing is proportionally lower than that needed for a larger swing on a bigger machine. So it may balance out sufficiently for my purposes.

    EDIT: Actually the UMC500 would juuuust fit the 620mm part. But there's another that's 700. Hmm. I suppose for the overhangs I could just bolt a subplate on that would support the ends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    I have not. Let me know what they tell you as far as pricing goes.

    I'm really not sure a dedicated 5x machine is the right call. As far as I can see it, I'll lose more by having smaller travels than I'll gain by the ability to make larger/more accurate 5x parts unless I step up to a larger mill that can handle both. The UMC750 is about the right envelope, but it isn't gonna fit. The main driver for 5x is rapid prototyping. All the parts my former teams (who I'd hope to supply from time to time) make are either large 3x parts, or small parts that could be cut in fewer setups on a 5x. A dedicated machine is great, but loses me the ability to machine larger 3x parts at a given price point.

    Flexibility is at a premium here. If I get super lucky and get enough work to justify more machines or a larger space, that'd be wonderful, but until then I need to have flexibility within the confines of the requirements I listed. Looking back through some of my own old parts made on those teams, and their envelopes, we have...

    An R26 x 18mm D2 part.
    A 480 x 90 x 35mm MIC-6 part, machined on 4 sides.
    A 484 x 120 x 30mm MIC-6 part, machined on all sides.
    A 430 x 64 x 350mm MIC-6 part, with about 90% of the material pocketed out.
    A 64 x 38 x 100mm PEEK part, machined on all sides.
    A 620 x 85 x 36mm delrin part, machined on 4 sides.
    A R160mm x 35mm SS304 flange.

    Not that this is exhaustive or necessarily predictive, rather an example of the types of parts I typically work on. The parts that would most benefit from 5x tend to be small. OTOH, I don't think any of the dedicated 5x machines in my price range will swing a 600mm part.

    As gkoenig pointed out a more hacky 5x bolt-on solution will be less accurate, but OTOH the precision required for a smaller swing is proportionally lower than that needed for a larger swing on a bigger machine. So it may balance out sufficiently for my purposes.

    EDIT: Actually the UMC500 would juuuust fit the 620mm part. But there's another that's 700. Hmm. I suppose for the overhangs I could just bolt a subplate on that would support the ends.
    I was initially thinking UMC 500 ss from your parts sizes and sides to 'Hit".

    The DMP 70 comes in a non 5 axis version with 700 mm travel in x. (ramstyle arrangement with table moving only in X)



    The DMP 70 5 axis has 700mm in x travel but I don't have collision diagrams to fully figure out if there is way to attach longer fixtures, There seems to be precision machined flats on the comparatively largish 5 aixs assy on the DMP 700 5ax so that 620 x 85 x 36 mm parts might actually work (facepalm)/ lol.



    "They" DMG Mori also have a CMX 600 V and 800V (600m x travel and 800 mm travel ) 3 axis verticals buttressed ram style and table moving only in X (also) (relatively compact) but also a DD/ DDRT NEW five axis table mountable trunnion ("SmartTilt") that can be arranged so its 4th axis like a regular 4th rotary (main axis parallel to X axis of machine) but the trunnion tilts parallel to the Y axis of the machine. 3+2 and 4+1 not sim 5 but being DD type motors very accurate --> 5 arc second repeatability (very little backlash) rather than 15 to 20 arc seconds for a more typical trunnion + mechanical backlash.

    Not trying too shill too much for DMG Mori, but did seem to fit some of what you laid out.

    For me selling point on DMP 70 is scales and DD type motors and good thermal control (and pretty beefy machine of its type) + potentially good spindles (assuming the DMP is substantially less confuzzulated than it's predecessor ) bearing in mind it is forbidden to have scales on a Fanuc Robodrill in the USA but allowed in Japan.

    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________


    My view of 5 axis is just another level of automation. Having robot to run ten widgets would be good as I can go and do other things like program , design etc. being chained to a machine like a 3 axis vertical would eventually kill my business.

    I am lazy disorganized and easily distracted so designing for higher level of efficiency and automation one way or another is pretty essential for me / small business. so If I can turn out 10 x of $1000.00 widget a day or the equivalent in various combinations and do other things then that works for me. ~Anything "Process" related I'm very disciplined with so anything leaning towards enhanced automation and to design for that is a good fit for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhearons View Post
    Please don’t forget to honestly appraise the situation in your neighborhood. Many people will go full NIMBY at the drop of a hat and will happily torpedo this project when the riggers show up.
    Agreed. Especially in CA. Deep pockets in SS is going to get loud if you don't have a good buffer around your house. I develop IP for a semi conductor company in the east bay area of CA. I live in Austin.They set me up in a shop 1 mile away from my house. I bought the brother knowing It would work in my garage if my job goes sideways and I have to move out. I have a great spot as far as noise control, but HOA or not, the a holes will come out of the woodwork as soon as the riggers show up. Even if they live 2 streets over (at least in my hood).

    Just my .02.

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    from what I have seen around my county is if your in a city or town your screwed,,, If your out in the county copy off there property use laws from the county website ( most places have them under DCD ) and read "EVERY" line of code there is ,,, bottom line is most county employees have no clue what the laws are ,, most have sound laws and building use laws and you might have to do some hunting to find them ... "MAKE AND KEEP" all copys ... you should be grandfathered in to the laws the day you asked for your use permit ,, if they change there laws it cant effect you ,,, I have had to deal with my county a few times and when ever there has been a meeting its clear they don`t know jack %&*% about there own laws and there easy to make them back off ..

    Well you should be nice to the county people , keep in mind there not there to be your friend and write down "EVERYTHING"

    well the people that live around me have been great for 35+ years I have a lady up the street more than a block away that was dating a
    old friend of mine and when her husband found out she started calling the county and it went sideways FAST....

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    when her husband found out she started calling the county and it went sideways FAST....
    So what exactly can they do? This isn't a "business" per se, as far as anyone local is concerned it's my personal mill. Which for the most part it is. I would think from a legal POV it's no different from having a drill press in my garage. Just...a large one. Noise complaints aside, given the lack of an HOA, what are the practical consequences I should be concerned about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    So what exactly can they do? This isn't a "business" per se, as far as anyone local is concerned it's my personal mill. Which for the most part it is. I would think from a legal POV it's no different from having a drill press in my garage. Just...a large one. Noise complaints aside, given the lack of an HOA, what are the practical consequences I should be concerned about?
    If you get a sense of your neighborhood and specific neighbors I'm not sure someone would be minded to impose some sort of injunction on your machine ?

    there's a number of shops in my neighborhood (in NM) and in CO I get more noise complaints in my commercial space 'cuz normally it's so quiet and the walls are not sound proofed.

    Lots of Tormachs and HAAS's and Speedios in peoples garages all across the land. + Manual equipment and routers etc.

    Plenty of noisy wood shops in people's barn garages in suburban neighborhoods.

    I mean Saturday and Sunday morning every b*stard is out there with some sort of two stroke noisy Mofo cutting strimming , chain sawing or in some cases uses really noisy chippers etc. ~ Maybe machine your "ringing cavities" on a Sunday morning ;-).

    In Germany they have law that says you can't mow your lawn / use a lawn mower on Sunday or face a heavy fine. ~ They only recently relaxed the law on noisy children on Sundays, and people using noisy vacuum cleaners in a block of flats.

    Practical consideration is/ for local riggers / driveway.

    3 phase. And how …

    Maybe don't pour 50 to 100 gallons of old coolant down the drain and devise ways to subtly sneak out chip barrels/containers / drums etc.

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  21. #35
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    Fair enough! I just read ten threads on here with similar issues. The general conclusion seems to be that common sense reigns. Don't draw attention to yourself, don't have forklifts showing up, don't make excessive noise, don't dump coolant in the yard, etc. I've met my adjacent neighbors and they seem pretty cheery and welcoming so far. They haven't complained about the home theater or giant subwoofers so that's a positive sign.

    The driveway is flat and easy to get to, the street is very wide and will pose no issues for the riggers. There's also a police station literally 2 blocks away so that may be fun.

    It is, of course, a residential zone. I'm generally a fan of the "ask forgiveness" strategy, I see no benefit to notifying the city what I plan to do. An LLC will be formed prior to any purchase. As far as the city is concerned I'm doing design/engineering consulting and no more.

    I've had a couple electricians out for power. There is a 200A service and the house only uses 60A. A 100A subpanel + breakers + outlets will run me ~$6k.

    If the day that the riggers show up goes without a hitch I think it's fairly smooth sailing from there. Once the garage door closes, it stays closed. Majority of the parts I make are not large enough to cause issues with respect to shipping. No freight required but on rare occasions, and I can always pick up stock myself and drop it off at Fedex myself. Material delivery is small-scale enough that I doubt anyone will have an issue. Who doesn't have random boxes from Amazon constantly showing up nowadays?

    At the end of the day it's a risk, but hopefully a minor one. The other options are either to do nothing at all and drop the idea, or to shell out $75k/year for an industrial space. At that point I have to make money and that necessity can really suck the joy out of things. I'll take the risk and keep my fingers crossed. I will of course deduct the mill on the LLC, but I sincerely doubt the IRS cares about where it is. Similarly I'm skeptical that the local city council has a direct line to the IRS, and it would be a Delaware LLC as per usual anyway.

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    THREE KEY THINGS:

    1. Real estate: There's what you think the law is, and what political and social forces will make the law actually be - and so for example in most urban places it's illegal to keep a cow in your garage. What? It's not a business! It's a friendly cow! Too bad. If you don't own the structure the landlord's fears may do you in.

    Understand that there are "neighborhood issues" but also "government revenue issues" - as in they will find a way to make you get a permit, for which the permit itself is zilch, but the cost is high -> they harvest revenue. Think of it as an odd way to structure a tax rather than a permit/safety issue per se. (Prop #13 means this is big deal in CA.)

    My personal shops from early on (all in WA) have been in commercial spaces (either leased or now owned) which are explicitly zoned for the sorts of things I'm doing. THAT has merit in any dispute. Also, pick a space between a roofer, a winery, and say a rock crusher. Nobody will ever complain to YOU about smell, noise, or truck traffic. (Wineries are WAY stinker and make WAY more traffic than you would think and are fine diversions for local complainers - of which I've never had any.)


    2. You do not understand 5-axis sizing. You are a smart person who does engineering and math. You are probably smarter than I am. You still do not understand 5-axis sizing. You won't until you try to fit the workholding, the stock, the sometimes very short and sometimes very very long tooling to make the part, and oh don't hit the tool-setter! Also that "huge" Z got 1/2 eaten by needing the workholding way up in the air like a lighthouse so you can machine the side faces without smacking the head on the table or the trunnion.

    Were I OP, I'd look long and hard at issues like #1, and then apply Bryan's Rule of 5-axis - make a cad model of the machine (with motion mates), make cad models of the workholding, model not just the part but the STOCK, and TOOLS, and make sure it all fits.

    The Z-axis multipliers that all 3-axis machines face (it takes say 9" of Z height with 7" of Z travel to drill a 3" deep hole) apply SIDEWAYS on a 5-axis machine - you tilt the head or table to B90 and now "x becomes z" and the whole story repeats.

    One thing you will find in a hurry is that bolt-on trunnions and rotaries eat space very rapidly. Remember, it's not just the trunnion, it's the trunnion+workholding+riser to allow side work.

    Later, you will discover that when things are just right, at least *some* native 5-axis configs can "punch above their" weight in the size of the parts they can machine - once you figure out how to orient such parts.

    All of that said, assuming success with a suitable building, you should look long and very very hard at something like a Haas UMC.

    And spend some time on youtube - were it available 15 years ago it would have saved me a lot of money.


    3. OK, you have a space, and a good machine, and now you want to prototype things. And very soon, you will want to go fast. As in concept to machined part in 1 hour, because you want to take it to lunch to show somebody tomorrow. How fast the machine goes will quickly become almost irrelevent. It will be all about how good is your CAD, how good is your CAM, how good is your library of pre-built tools and their management. Because it's really common for complicated parts to take longer to program than to run, and for simple parts to take longer for tool-build or even tool-load than to run.

    If you are working in free-time away from your day job, this will be magnified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    from what I have seen around my county is if your in a city or town your screwed,,, If your out in the county copy off there property use laws from the county website ( most places have them under DCD ) and read "EVERY" line of code there is ,,, bottom line is most county employees have no clue what the laws are ,, most have sound laws and building use laws and you might have to do some hunting to find them ... "MAKE AND KEEP" all copys ... you should be grandfathered in to the laws the day you asked for your use permit ,, if they change there laws it cant effect you ,,, I have had to deal with my county a few times and when ever there has been a meeting its clear they don`t know jack %&*% about there own laws and there easy to make them back off ..

    Well you should be nice to the county people , keep in mind there not there to be your friend and write down "EVERYTHING" .......
    DD has pretty good advice here. I too have found a few instances of County Code Enforcement workers not knowing all applicable codes.

    IME each municipality has unique regulations and one needs to read them carefully and understand what they need to do to be legal when running a business (or even a hobby that some could mistake for a business).

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    @SVFeingold - also remember that 3-phase is sqrt(3) times the power for the same amps - so 100amps of single phase free won't run a 100amp 3-phase machine.... (You knew that right? There's a whole sub forum devoted to phase converters....)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Fair enough! I just read ten threads on here with similar issues. The general conclusion seems to be that common sense reigns. Don't draw attention to yourself, don't have forklifts showing up, don't make excessive noise, don't dump coolant in the yard, etc. I've met my adjacent neighbors and they seem pretty cheery and welcoming so far. They haven't complained about the home theater or giant subwoofers so that's a positive sign.

    The driveway is flat and easy to get to, the street is very wide and will pose no issues for the riggers. There's also a police station literally 2 blocks away so that may be fun.

    It is, of course, a residential zone. I'm generally a fan of the "ask forgiveness" strategy, I see no benefit to notifying the city what I plan to do. An LLC will be formed prior to any purchase. As far as the city is concerned I'm doing design/engineering consulting and no more.

    I've had a couple electricians out for power. There is a 200A service and the house only uses 60A. A 100A subpanel + breakers + outlets will run me ~$6k.

    If the day that the riggers show up goes without a hitch I think it's fairly smooth sailing from there. Once the garage door closes, it stays closed. Majority of the parts I make are not large enough to cause issues with respect to shipping. No freight required but on rare occasions, and I can always pick up stock myself and drop it off at Fedex myself. Material delivery is small-scale enough that I doubt anyone will have an issue. Who doesn't have random boxes from Amazon constantly showing up nowadays?

    At the end of the day it's a risk, but hopefully a minor one. The other options are either to do nothing at all and drop the idea, or to shell out $75k/year for an industrial space. At that point I have to make money and that necessity can really suck the joy out of things. I'll take the risk and keep my fingers crossed. I will of course deduct the mill on the LLC, but I sincerely doubt the IRS cares about where it is. Similarly I'm skeptical that the local city council has a direct line to the IRS, and it would be a Delaware LLC as per usual anyway.
    That sounds pretty doable and the riggers don't need to use their "maximum" sized equipment either. Sometimes smaller forklifts work just fine.

    That's funny about your "Sub woofers" home theatre , just driving around you get low riders with more acoustic "Amperage".

    In Denver I'm on 3000 sqft 1000 office 2000 niceish wharehouse that's about $35K/ year hang about for a few years and easily you burn through $120K.

    I have a ranch I'm selling very soon in NM and trying to consolidate everything on some new acreage in CO (probably south of Denver / Parker / Castle Rock etc.). Still need to figure out exactly where.

    I'm looking to get into the "New building" thing in an expandable way. AND go the smaller more accurate machine route + automation (as early as possible).

    Point being to avoid getting on that treadmill just working your ass off sweating bullets just to make rent and pay off big loans on machines.

    @SVFeingold you have experienced one start up / incubator that had to shut and it's not always possible to guarantee everything is going to be a resounding success ALL THE TIME :-)

    So being in a more stable and agile position where some one can't take this stuff away from you, (no matter what) is a good position to be in especially if you are doing new things that have never been done before. Personally I think it's more important to be able to always play the game rather than engage in a much larger scale spectacular "Fail" ~ Not everything can be controlled especially external factors beyond your control. Playing on the more comfortable side of risk management yet having equipment that delivers world class parts / components. + lots of other auxiliary techniques to help with that that don't involve big CNC machines either. Nice if you can devise a way to efficiently scale with that too (by design, if you can.).

    Who knows exactly what is going to happen in the next 18 months or three years ?

    The Delaware LLC things is a good dodge , lot of people do that, didn't know that was still a thing ~ I guess it is :-)

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    All great points Bryan, well taken.

    You are correct about the 5-axis workholding. It's a new world to me. I do what I can by reading threads here and watching Youtube videos on the topic, but the only way to really know is to take parts I want to run and throw them into CAD on the machine with workholding/tooling/etc. This is on my list of things to do before pulling the trigger and it should be illuminating.

    I have to assume that with something like the UMC it's possible to machine parts that exceed the travel by hanging one end out the door, machining, then flipping it around and re-indicating. Double the setups but maybe possible. This is of course assuming you can disable the rotary axes because I don't even want to think about the consequences otherwise.

    I'm surprised to see the love the UMC is getting. I kind of expected a bunch of "it's not worth it, it's floppy, it doesn't hold tolerance, etc." I'm definitely looking into it, will have to ask them if they can fit it through an 89" door height. All of my own parts will fit within that envelope nicely, as far as I can see. Generally I can say I'm surprised that folks are really pushing for 5x when much of the work would be suited to 3x, with only smaller 5x parts. Seems to be the way the winds are blowing.

    Your third point I also agree with. One thing I've seen from all efficient shops that have to run stupid numbers of unique parts is the attention to detail in regards to tool management.

    If you are working in free-time away from your day job, this will be magnified.
    This is what I'm really focused on. If I can save 30 minutes a day on CAM, or setup, or what have you, that 30 minutes is a lot more valuable when crammed into off-time vs. taken out of a full work day. Where those economies will be most attainable is something I just don't know yet. Whether it's the control, the set-up, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    @SVFeingold - also remember that 3-phase is sqrt(3) times the power for the same amps - so 100amps of single phase free won't run a 100amp 3-phase machine.... (You knew that right? There's a whole sub forum devoted to phase converters....)
    Good point. This was part of the impetus for a Brother...can run off a 30A 208V breaker from what I hear. The UMC500 and VF-2 both require a 70A breaker per Haas, which would bump up the requirement to 120A just for the mill. Then there's a compressor which will take another 10-20A (single phase). That's getting to be a handful and bumping into the service limits. How often those machines actually draw 70A, I have no idea. Really it's ~10% less because of the step down from 240 to 220, but still up there. People do seem to run the Haas machines on 60A (and even 20A apparently) breakers with no ill effects. Hard to say.

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