Buying first machine. Questions about Speedio vs. Okuma. - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    All great points Bryan, well taken.

    <snip all super good>

    I'm surprised to see the love the UMC is getting. I kind of expected a bunch of "it's not worth it, it's floppy, it doesn't hold tolerance, etc."

    <snip for clarity>

    Your third point I also agree with. One thing I've seen from all efficient shops that have to run stupid numbers of unique parts is the attention to detail in regards to tool management.

    This is what I'm really focused on. If I can save 30 minutes a day on CAM, or setup, or what have you, that 30 minutes is a lot more valuable when crammed into off-time vs. taken out of a full work day. Where those economies will be most attainable is something I just don't know yet. Whether it's the control, the set-up, etc.


    <snips various>
    Re: your quizzing of 3 axis versus 5 axis …

    How many set ups do you have to make for your parts on a three axis machine versus a 5 axis machine (potentially) ?

    Do you know your tolerances ? And are there any tricky features that have to be referenced to each other with high angular precision on different planes ?

    Is there an end goal where you would exceed the current capability of the machine you might buy ?

    I think the "greater love" for HAAS UMC has come from a fresh approach to new models from lessons learnt from their first and second improved UMC 750 ss , now there is a UMC 750 ss "Reboot" where the castings have been redesigned + wider spacing on trucks and longer castings and rails (like on Z axis). ~ Good thread on it by gkoenig et al. (overall more rigid machine).

    HAAS UMC 500 seems proportionally more rigid for it's size and seems very compact. Has rotary scales down to 20 arc seconds ish *and cyclonic drives that can take a pounding. (not super high precision but with a bit of jiggery pokery and probing can fix some errors in a lot of cases.).

    Better IS better.

    For a lot of people HAAS is the "Home Team" and the low prices $ / value are hard to ignore if it fits your application "Space".

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________


    * Most machinist think in terms of tenths over a run or a feature rather than specific angular tolerances in arc seconds. So some folks find it tricky to relate angular tolerances to machine capability in some cases. Depends on your parts.

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  3. #42
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    And now a word about sticking things out the window, on a 5-axis machine.

    The first thing to notice is that normal sized 5-axis machines basically NEVER have the lovely large slider windows on the ends of a VF3 or VF5. Even the UMC only has a window on one side.

    The second thing is that some machines (notably my DMU60) will sit and pout if they don't get to home the scales on their rotary axis (C only in my case.) on startup. So, if you have to power down and boot up again, everything has to come off the table, and be put back on. Further, having parts that cross the rotary table (never mind out the window) attracts lightening storms and power failures. You don't have to ask me how I know this.

    I have been told the "rotary must home" thing is NOT TRUE of something like a DMU65 (successor machine), and have no idea if it's true of UMC - by all means check.

    But above all, while yes being able to work bigger parts with a variety of Special Machinist Tricks is a fine thing, but it's a righteous pain in the neck. It's slow because you have to do soooo muuuuuch special stuff.

    On machines where the table moves in Z supporting the end becomes a production. On a machine like the UMC (and DMUs and LOTS of current generation 5axis where table is "fixed" in XYZ and rotates only) - it will be EASIER to attach some oversized thing to the table and hang it out the window - since only the head will move. But it will still be a pain. Chips and coolant will the see the part as a bridge to escape imprisonment in the machine and go visit the wider world (the shop floor.) Having coolant on the floor is a pain (trust me) and if at your dwelling will annoy the other members of your household.

    Bottom line - sticking stuff out the side of the machine is an legit thing, but don't count on it as a daily mechanism.

    Also, a machine that is just-barely-by-a-whisker big enough gets old fast because you will spend too much time getting things lined up to 0.005" . You really want enough travel to have some elbow room for most work most of the time - that is, if you want to go fast.

    I don't work in your shop-to-be, and don't pay your bills, but think long and hard about getting a machine that is really big enough.

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    @SVFeingold , I would probably not recommend a HAAS UMC 500 or 750 etc. for a regular garage.

    1. Height of the newer machines is not insubstantial in reference to your 89" door. (HAAS has put on their layout / install diagrams the minimum you can scrunch a machine down to and that seems to exceed your 89"... - maybe there is some further craftiness that could be employed.).

    2. A 6" regular garage slab may not serve you as well as you might like.

    With HAAS UMC's there's a pretty lengthy and tricky alignment of the whole machine major castings and trunnion alignment that is in turn dependent on subtle floor and foot adjustments which in turn is dependent on a really GOOD foundation.

    Maybe a lighter more stable machine that is more independent of it's foundation for more "orthogonal" function and hence more accurate parts might be literally a better functional fit.

    Again not to shill too much for DMG ::: ~ CMX 1100 V with the new five axis unit might work also for you … 5 axis unit not taking up too much table space and giving you that 700 mm clear run. (the unit is designed for 4 and 5 axis work with most of it's arse hanging off the table - The table is quite long .).

    I don't know your parts , but our longer parts tend to be more prismatic / 4th axis capable or even three axis capable and our smaller "Grape fruit" to small soccer ball sized parts tend to be more sim 5 axis parts.

    HAAS UMC's are good for large drinks tray , deep pizza box sized parts too... Complex top face main precision referenced surface with lower precision ( side features , not critically referenced.).

    Also HAAS control is still a little slow... 80 block look ahead. (maybe that doesn't matter ?) .

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    My DMU60 is a 3 foot machine - meaning within reason, it doesn't care much about the floor. BUT - it's like 10 feet tall, and DMU65 is even taller. But worth checking if the new machines are "3 foot" designs. (3 feet make a plane, so 3 feet can't be out-of-plane...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    My DMU60 is a 3 foot machine - meaning within reason, it doesn't care much about the floor. BUT - it's like 10 feet tall, and DMU65 is even taller. But worth checking if the new machines are "3 foot" designs. (3 feet make a plane, so 3 feet can't be out-of-plane...)
    That is a really nice feature,(for sure). It's really cleaver how the weight is distributed.

    There was one guy on Pm forum here that did buy a DMU 65 monoblock second hand with the ultra sonic option and put it in his garage lol.

    Hermle are nice also not requiring a formal foundation / not needing to be bolted to the floor but I think they are on 4 feet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    With HAAS UMC's there's a pretty lengthy and tricky alignment of the whole machine major castings and trunnion alignment that is in turn dependent on subtle floor and foot adjustments which in turn is dependent on a really GOOD foundation.
    This was true on the older Gen 1 & 2 UMC 750s, but is it true on the Gen 3 machines? Haas has significantly changed the castings and table support, so overall rigidity almost doubled. As such, IDK if the alignment voodoo from the old 750 is still a thing.

    On top of that, the previous model’s rather sloppy accuracy situation has probably improved substantially with the Gen 3 rotary scales.

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Hi all!

    You may remember me from some 5 years ago when I posted a thread about purchasing a Speedio for in-house prototyping for a startup. I got some great advice on that thread (and have read it many times) but sadly, as often happens, we were unable to secure the funding we needed and had to dissolve the business. C'est la vie.

    Since then I've gone back to being a company engineer (for now), and the time is right to finally make that CNC purchase after all. Only this time I'm the client.

    I just moved into a house here on the west coast, and a big part of the deciding factor was the ability to install a mill in the garage. Now that I'm here, I'm digging into what it would take to get a mill up and running. Coming up on the time to make a purchase decision (within 6 months).

    To get right into it I'm currently trying to decide between a Speedio S1000X and an Okuma M460-VE. The M560-VE is more compelling but after talking it through with Gosiger it flat out won't fit through the door, so it's out.

    What I want the mill to do:
    - Materials: Mostly aluminum parts, occasionally some copper and stainless (304/316), very rarely tool steel (O1 or A2), lots of Delrin and PEEK.
    - Speed: Speed is a bonus but not necessary. I don't need to cut SS or steel fast, but I need to be able to do it with good accuracy and surface finish.
    - Rare deep-ish (3-5") pockets in stainless.
    - Rigid tapping: Able to rigid tap small (M1-M2) threads without breaking taps left and right due to poor synchronization.

    I don't anticipate running production quantities (to me that's more than 1k) of anything unless I get lucky, but this is not the goal. It's primarily a personal prototyping tool for my own projects as well as a way to earn a little on the side supplying engineering teams I've worked in/with over the past several years. 2-3 parts per month will be enough to pay for the financing, and the rather massive tax break doesn't hurt either. But I can pay for the mill with or without any outside work: it's just a bonus.

    Brother is what's captured my attention for the last few years. I want one. The options I'm interested in are:
    • S1000X with 16k BBT spindle
    • CTSI interface (I will install the pump myself)
    • Probing system
    • High accuracy Mode BII
    • MPG
    • 5th axis rotary that will swing a ~3" x 3" x 10" part. Many options here that all seem "good" but not really sure what the practical day-to-day differences are. Nikken, Sankyo, Koma, Yukiwa, etc. Nikken is probably the highest reviewed around here but has "middle of the road" indexing accuracy specs compared to the others. Are they just super conservative on these?



    Enter the Okuma. It looks like a fantastic machine, very rigid, excellent controls, but it's just an entire step up in preparation. Similarly optioned it looks to be about $30k more, it weighs nearly double at 15.4k lb, and has higher power requirements. It's already $6k to run a 100A subpanel to the garage and the Okuma needs more, not to mention it's a 6" slab so that's a concern. It's way, way bigger. Everything gets more expensive to make the Okuma work.

    The only thing that would make the Okuma worth the stretch is if it can do things the Brother flat out can't do. Full 5th is certainly a nice option to have, but I can't make the argument that it's necessary. What it really comes down to is:

    • Surfacing. The zeigeist seems to be that the Okuma is hands down better at surfacing. SuperNURBS sounds amazing and very expensive, but it's an option if ever needed in the future. The mode B parameters on the Brother are a continuing source of confusion and frustration based on the threads here (and I've read them all twice). Has anything changed here on the Brother front?
    • Tool hangout. It will be a rare part where I need to machine a 5" pocket in stainless, but I'd like to be capable of doing it. If the Okuma can do it in 1 minute and the big-plus Brother can do it in 20, that's fine by me.
    • Working with 3+2/4+1. The Brother doesn't have dynamic work offsets or tool centerpoint control. I'm (possibly unreasonably) concerned by this. I'm curious to what extent this is necessary to avoid 5 axis setups becoming exercises in frustration. Those of you who run these setups without DWO or TCPC, do you miss it? I see the value on real 5x machines with large tables, where you can have multiple fixtures setup in random locations. My 5th would be used for single-piece flow type of work.
    • I'm confused by the Brother manuals which state that the control can move 4 axes simultaneously for "linear" moves, but only 2 for "circular moves." What does that mean in practice? I specifically asked Yamazen about this and it sounds like you can do 4 axis machining such as profiling a part while turning a single rotary axis, or for instance cutting an arbitrary circular chamfer by using the side of an end mill to cut while one rotary axis spins. Essentially to cut one-off "lathe" parts without a lathe. Or for instance interpolating a slot that wraps around a cylinder. Can someone help clarify what exactly this spec means?
    • Surface finish. There is a lot that goes into surface finish, and I don't need a mirror finish on everything. However, I should be capable of hitting ~4-8rms finishes when called out on faces, bores, and o-ring grooves. If it's just down to tooling/process optimization and either machine is capable that's fine by me.
    • Work envelope. Short Z aside, the Brother has the highest work envelope:machine size ratio I've found.


    In terms of pricing the Brother kit would probably run about $150k as optioned above although I'm willing to wait for a demo machine. The Okuma looks more like $170-180k. That's not including an additional ~$40k for tax, power, air compressor, tooling, auxiliary equipment, etc. The ability to field-upgrade the Okuma to full 5 if needed is nice, but I can't think of anything I'd *need* it for that couldn't be done with positioning + surfacing. I will be making custom fan blades once in a blue moon (think PC server fan, not turbo impeller) but I don't think it's necessary there either.

    There are other machines. Haas is a fair bit cheaper especially with the huge sales going on right now, but I've read almost nothing good about their rotaries here. Hardinge was suggested by Gosiger as a machine to fit this space (V480 or V710) but I know little about them. Plus the work envelope is smaller than the Speedio. The Milltap 700 seems ok but I don't think it'd fit and also has a smaller envelope. Plus I'm nervous about the support (or lack thereof). Yamazen has been continually great and patient with me, and the rep I met from Gosiger was great as well. Anything else worth looking into?

    So there you have it. Lots of questions. As always any feedback is greatly appreciated. Anyone who runs any of these machines in Norcal I'd love to pay your shop a visit, along with a case of beer or cigars or whatever you like!

    i've programmed and set up parts without DWO/TCPC, i would NEVER willingly go back to that. extreme pain in the ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    This was true on the older Gen 1 & 2 UMC 750s, but is it true on the Gen 3 machines? Haas has significantly changed the castings and table support, so overall rigidity almost doubled. As such, IDK if the alignment voodoo from the old 750 is still a thing.

    On top of that, the previous model’s rather sloppy accuracy situation has probably improved substantially with the Gen 3 rotary scales.
    The machines' basic design / layout haven't changed … So it's the same number of feet and same number of shims and same alignment procedures. -Similar mass distribution. But I agree improved stiffness through the structure - but still dependent on "feet" + foundation.

    The scales are of the order of 20 arc second (so personally I don't think that's a major improvement over what the originals had but just means if the machine starts to get loose after many years of being hammered it can still probably position down to 20 arc seconds ~ NICE to have , better than nothing (for sure). Definitely a step in the right direction. Cyclonic drive is easy to replace and can theoretically tolerate much pounding and crash-age.

    Modern affordable-ish machine that's forward looking should be able to repeat to 5 arc seconds as that covers high precision intricate parts (like on a Christmas tree arrangement/ clustered multiple parts) as well as larger single parts and fixtures. DD type motors better for sim -5 axis (if you need it).

    [Not everybody needs that but was trying to imagine OP's requirements / "Avoid disappointment".]

    To my eye the UMC 500 seems proportionately more rigid for it's size but still dependent on GOOD foundation (not garage). - Probably not impossible to pour a 10" foundation in your garage ? (I agree the BED looks better / good).

    The goto guy would be empwoer on this he has the HAAS UMC 500 SS + his Matsuura linear machine. I believe he poured a really substantial foundation for his UMC 500 ss.

    The HAAS UMC aren't a monoblock type and have long knuckle trunnion "span" in Y ---> Back to good foundation.

    Still no linear scales on the UMC(s)… AFIK.

    But if that fits what you need that's super awesome.

    I'm really interested to see HAAS pull the dust sheet off the NEW UMC 1500 Duo - Really want to see the bridge design as that COULD be a pretty freaking rigid machine at least along one axis. -The "Bridge " on that should be fairly substantial and I'm guessing the machine would weigh about 28,000 lbs ? (would wish for linear scale at least on x axis and some sort of thermal compensation above what HAAS normally do.).

    (that's only me, but not necessarily "garage friendly " ;-) ).

    Some of the larger HAAS based shops (I've seen), seem to have pretty awesome climate control on a grand scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    I would really, really love to. There are two things that stop me. First, obviously, is the cost. Not just a mill but the prep and tool-up. I'd be looking at minimum like 300k with the Matsuura and that's just out of reach right now. The other is that I have no need to run large 5-axis parts.

    Again, the Haas UMC 500 SS. Fits under your ceiling requirements (103" tall operation height, 99" install height). If you can live with 12k RPM, you're looking at $129k with TSC prep. Bumping that bad boy up to the 15k and it is another $10k.


    Even if you add the chop conveyor and 15k spindle, you're at $146k. IDK why you wound entertain a YT machine with the UMC500SS at those prices. A 3 axis machine with a 5 axis dingus bolted onto the table will never have the accuracy (no scales), dynamics, or overall quality of a machine designed from the ground up as a true 5 axis mill.
    i have to agree, after a few initial install guffaws with our 500SS, its been a real treat to work with! not in the same class of machine as our matsuura LX160, but an incredible machine for the money.

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    How's support for DMG Mori stuff in Norcal? I kinda doubt the CMX series are in my price range, and they're just a bit too tall for this space.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    @SVFeingold , I would probably not recommend a HAAS UMC 500 or 750 etc. for a regular garage.

    1. Height of the newer machines is not insubstantial in reference to your 89" door. (HAAS has put on their layout / install diagrams the minimum you can scrunch a machine down to and that seems to exceed your 89"... - maybe there is some further craftiness that could be employed.).

    2. A 6" regular garage slab may not serve you as well as you might like.

    With HAAS UMC's there's a pretty lengthy and tricky alignment of the whole machine major castings and trunnion alignment that is in turn dependent on subtle floor and foot adjustments which in turn is dependent on a really GOOD foundation.

    Maybe a lighter more stable machine that is more independent of it's foundation for more "orthogonal" function and hence more accurate parts might be literally a better functional fit.

    Again not to shill too much for DMG ::: ~ CMX 1100 V with the new five axis unit might work also for you … 5 axis unit not taking up too much table space and giving you that 700 mm clear run. (the unit is designed for 4 and 5 axis work with most of it's arse hanging off the table - The table is quite long .).

    I don't know your parts , but our longer parts tend to be more prismatic / 4th axis capable or even three axis capable and our smaller "Grape fruit" to small soccer ball sized parts tend to be more sim 5 axis parts.

    HAAS UMC's are good for large drinks tray , deep pizza box sized parts too... Complex top face main precision referenced surface with lower precision ( side features , not critically referenced.).

    Also HAAS control is still a little slow... 80 block look ahead. (maybe that doesn't matter ?) .
    you well know the issues i've had with haas control and its processing power (or lack thereof...)

    this issue CAN be worked around with a capable cam package that can filter out the code properly. can be a pain in the ass sometimes, considering with just about any other control you just dump as much code into it and it chews through like butter.
    its not the end of the world, but deff something to consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    How's support for DMG Mori stuff in Norcal? I kinda doubt the CMX series are in my price range, and they're just a bit too tall for this space.
    beware with DMG support in general... socal support has been abhorrent for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    This was true on the older Gen 1 & 2 UMC 750s, but is it true on the Gen 3 machines? Haas has significantly changed the castings and table support, so overall rigidity almost doubled. As such, IDK if the alignment voodoo from the old 750 is still a thing.

    On top of that, the previous model’s rather sloppy accuracy situation has probably improved substantially with the Gen 3 rotary scales.
    alignment process is still the same. we found out the hard way our slab wasnt rigid enough when they started leveling it first. could visibly see the concrete move with a level placed on it when we applied pressure to one of the pads. when we cut the slab it was ~5" thick no reinforcement. we ended up pouring at 10" thick slab with metal reinforcement and so far have not had any issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    we ended up pouring at 10" thick slab with metal reinforcement and so far have not had any issues.
    That would be ideal...for me it's just not an option here. I don't own the place and want to minimize renovations. Having said that, I just went out and actually dug down the side of the slab. I measured 8" but still hadn't reached the bottom. So - unless garage slabs typically have deeper skirts - I am probably pretty safe on the foundation. As for reinforcement, I don't know. It was built fairly recently (~5 years) so it's probably well-supported underneath. I'll take a hammer to it later and listen for cavities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    you well know the issues i've had with haas control and its processing power (or lack thereof...)
    Does the HSM option help with the choking-on-the-code issue, or are they just fundamentally slow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    How's support for DMG Mori stuff in Norcal? I kinda doubt the CMX series are in my price range, and they're just a bit too tall for this space.
    I would avoid DMG, because we're all just bugs to them.

    In fact, I don't know who they care about as customers. I know not one but *two* multi-billion dollar multi-nationals out here doing Intel work. Both have been burned by DMG Mori being obnoxious, playing the customer blame game, delivering poorly supported equipment, etc. If you work where I think you work, ask some of the hardware guys from the Watch launch how DMG Mori worked out with the MillTap 700. They'll send you sympathy cards when they hear one is in your garage.

    Eric @ Orange has a great relationship with DMG Mori, as do a few others I know. They seem to have built an old-school personal relationship with folks in management positions and seem to have great support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    That would be ideal...for me it's just not an option here. I don't own the place and want to minimize renovations. Having said that, I just went out and actually dug down the side of the slab. I measured 8" but still hadn't reached the bottom. So - unless garage slabs typically have deeper skirts - I am probably pretty safe on the foundation. As for reinforcement, I don't know. It was built fairly recently (~5 years) so it's probably well-supported underneath. I'll take a hammer to it later and listen for cavities.
    chances are that if its over 6" you should be fine even without reinforcements. our slab was not only thin, but inconsistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Does the HSM option help with the choking-on-the-code issue, or are they just fundamentally slow?
    i wouldnt even bother doing any kind of surfacing on a haas with HSM. its a must imo. that said, its still not as good as any other control speed/processing power wise, but can be worked around with good filtering options in CAM.

    the machine hardware itself is capable of moving quite quickly, its the control that can get bogged down if you go over 1000block per second limit which is a combination of segment length (point to point distance) and feed rate. there's a calculator you can use to look at your code and show you if it violates the threshold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    If you work where I think you work, ask some of the hardware guys from the Watch launch how DMG Mori worked out with the MillTap 700. They'll send you sympathy cards when they hear one is in your garage.
    Duly noted, I will do that. But really, this is enough to kill the idea of DMG. I prefer minimal hassle when possible and playing phone tag, begging for support, is not something I'm interested in. And if those guys can't get proper support...hah. Forget it.

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  28. #60
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    I have to say Haas is looking more and more appealing. The only benefits over the Brother are the 5x capabilities, lower price, a beefier spindle, and 80% more Z travel. But those are pretty damn big benefits.

    Taking 5 steps back, the Haas is more than enough to do what I most want to do, which is prototype my own designs. I should consider myself lucky to even have the opportunity to make this choice instead of trying to fix a clapped out Bridgeport for $5k. IF I get any paid work it will be down to my skill to deliver, not the mill. Not like I'm making optical molds or titanium aero parts. I don't have to hold tenths all day. The Haas will be capable of delivering what it needs to, and as of today the capabilities of any of these machines exceed my own abilities anyway. If the paid work is eventually enough to get a big boy mill that's great, but cash is brand-agnostic. Until then I'll probably get more satisfaction from a lower monthly payment.

    As much as I want the Porsche, it may not be the smartest move right now. If I find myself needing to optimize cycle times on a 50k part run, chances are I'll be able to afford whichever mill is needed to do that.

    Anyone see a flaw in that line of reasoning?

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