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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Seems like HAAS is really killing it these days for 5 axis entry level...

    @SVFeingold so what's the plan if the UMCs can't get through your garage door ?

    VF2, VF3 ?

    Speedio/ Brother ?
    Well, the first step is to try and rush this all so that I can get something ordered before the Haas pricing returns to normal levels at the end of March. That jump would be very difficult to get over, being close to a $30k difference. Maybe Haas will agree to extend the pricing if I pinky swear to buy one? I also didn't realize that rigging + shipping is not included in the Haas pricing as it was for the Brother so that's more money there.

    If the UMC falls through, or I decide I just can't give up the table space, it'll probably be a VF-2SSYT. A 16" platter is pretty small...meaning a big subplate that hangs way off the table in -X would be necessary to actually use the travel on longer parts. The HSK spindle would be nice too but it's a $30k upgrade...

    Brother is still tempting but after considering all the advice given it seems like I'd be making a lot of sacrifices in day-to-day usability for the sake of a cool, super-fast production workhorse. I don't need a production workhorse. I'd be giving up things that I'd use every day for a headline capability I don't really take advantage of. Doesn't seem like the smartest move (although I still want one). The Okuma likewise would be a dream, but the whole endeavor just has to scale up to make it work. More money, more size, more weight, way more $$$ if I crash it.

    My current mood is...make stuff with the Haas. If the stuff is successful and you need the speed, then get the Brother.

    The next step is working out financing and what options I really need day 1. I'd prefer the longest lease/financing term available purely for cash flow. Haas' site goes to 3 years but 5-7 years would be better.

    Speaking of options, does anyone know what is included in the Haas 1k TSC option? Assuming you get the TSC-ready option, is it like the Brother where they just bolt on a high-pressure pump, or is extra plumbing/solenoids/filters involved?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Well, the first step is to try and rush this all so that I can get something ordered before the Haas pricing returns to normal levels at the end of March. That jump would be very difficult to get over, being close to a $30k difference. Maybe Haas will agree to extend the pricing if I pinky swear to buy one? I also didn't realize that rigging + shipping is not included in the Haas pricing as it was for the Brother so that's more money there.

    If the UMC falls through, or I decide I just can't give up the table space, it'll probably be a VF-2SSYT. A 16" platter is pretty small...meaning a big subplate that hangs way off the table in -X would be necessary to actually use the travel on longer parts. The HSK spindle would be nice too but it's a $30k upgrade...

    Brother is still tempting but after considering all the advice given it seems like I'd be making a lot of sacrifices in day-to-day usability for the sake of a cool, super-fast production workhorse. I don't need a production workhorse. I'd be giving up things that I'd use every day for a headline capability I don't really take advantage of. Doesn't seem like the smartest move (although I still want one). The Okuma likewise would be a dream, but the whole endeavor just has to scale up to make it work. More money, more size, more weight, way more $$$ if I crash it.

    My current mood is...make stuff with the Haas. If the stuff is successful and you need the speed, then get the Brother.

    The next step is working out financing and what options I really need day 1. I'd prefer the longest lease/financing term available purely for cash flow. Haas' site goes to 3 years but 5-7 years would be better.

    Speaking of options, does anyone know what is included in the Haas 1k TSC option? Assuming you get the TSC-ready option, is it like the Brother where they just bolt on a high-pressure pump, or is extra plumbing/solenoids/filters involved?
    Personally I don't allow myself to get sucked into "limited time specials" and run around like a chicken sans head to make it so.

    HAAS have cyclical deals (they are nice that way). So if you miss the boat this time, deal time will come around again - but also understand why you would want to take advantage of "Smokin' deal". They seem to have some enhanced deals if you buy a bunch of machines...

    MAZAK do some good financing 5 to 7 year but can't think of any MAZAk offerings that would meet your needs (right now). Not sure about HAAS financing ? I personally prefer to put more down upfront and then coast on smaller payments. [Peace of mind ].

    Not having seen facsimiles of your parts it may be that 3 axis is pretty much as good as 5 axis. [In some cases 3 axis can be better.].

    Even in 5 axis one has to get to the 6th face but in some cases it's really two sets of 3 faces that have to be blended , depending on part design. (Not just top'n tail).

    An orthogonal part may or may not save a ton of time on multiple set-ups between 4th axis rotary and 5 axis (especially for tricky high precision setups 3 axis can be more advantageous. ).

    If you get good at making fixtures/ fixture plates a lot can be done ~ Not sure exactly how you want to spend your time.

    You have enough Z height / tool clearance to get to the features and all the sides you want on 3 axis vertical (with the tools you want ? ) Possible difference between HSK and regular 40 taper ?

    Second hand machines are worth a "Gander too" ~ Some pretty amazing machines are coming onto the market but not sure how "Garage friendly " they are ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Well, the first step is to try and rush this all so that I can get something ordered before the Haas pricing returns to normal levels at the end of March. That jump would be very difficult to get over, being close to a $30k difference. Maybe Haas will agree to extend the pricing if I pinky swear to buy one? I also didn't realize that rigging + shipping is not included in the Haas pricing as it was for the Brother so that's more money there.

    If the UMC falls through, or I decide I just can't give up the table space, it'll probably be a VF-2SSYT. A 16" platter is pretty small...meaning a big subplate that hangs way off the table in -X would be necessary to actually use the travel on longer parts. The HSK spindle would be nice too but it's a $30k upgrade...

    Brother is still tempting but after considering all the advice given it seems like I'd be making a lot of sacrifices in day-to-day usability for the sake of a cool, super-fast production workhorse. I don't need a production workhorse. I'd be giving up things that I'd use every day for a headline capability I don't really take advantage of. Doesn't seem like the smartest move (although I still want one). The Okuma likewise would be a dream, but the whole endeavor just has to scale up to make it work. More money, more size, more weight, way more $$$ if I crash it.

    My current mood is...make stuff with the Haas. If the stuff is successful and you need the speed, then get the Brother.

    The next step is working out financing and what options I really need day 1. I'd prefer the longest lease/financing term available purely for cash flow. Haas' site goes to 3 years but 5-7 years would be better.

    Speaking of options, does anyone know what is included in the Haas 1k TSC option? Assuming you get the TSC-ready option, is it like the Brother where they just bolt on a high-pressure pump, or is extra plumbing/solenoids/filters involved?
    i dont believe we paid extra for shipping

    p.s. talk to your haas sales guy, ours told us that they have a LOT of other financing options other than the ones listed on their website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Well, the first step is to try and rush this all so that I can get something ordered before the Haas pricing returns to normal levels at the end of March. That jump would be very difficult to get over, being close to a $30k difference. Maybe Haas will agree to extend the pricing if I pinky swear to buy one? I also didn't realize that rigging + shipping is not included in the Haas pricing as it was for the Brother so that's more money there.
    What makes you think machine tool prices will go back in March?

    If anything, prices will be lower in the next few months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    What makes you think machine tool prices will go back in March?

    If anything, prices will be lower in the next few months.
    With the world going nuts about COVID, I can only hope. But I say that only because that is the end of the promotion according to Haas. How often they have these promotions, I haven't the foggiest.

    Good news from Selway though, they told me that by removing the tool carousel the machine can fit through the door.

    EDIT: Speaking of promotions, they are also offering a 50% discount on tooling through partners (Kennametal is one) and 25% discount on 5th axis workholding. Waiting on a list of vendors. Anyone got bad things to say about Kennametal?
    Last edited by SVFeingold; 03-10-2020 at 07:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    An orthogonal part may or may not save a ton of time on multiple set-ups between 4th axis rotary and 5 axis (especially for tricky high precision setups 3 axis can be more advantageous. ).

    If you get good at making fixtures/ fixture plates a lot can be done ~ Not sure exactly how you want to spend your time.
    The kind of paid work I think I might be taking - if it's anything like the stuff we designed while I was there - is mostly orthogonal. Even mix of small/medium/large parts. Some of the medium ones are right on the edge with the UMC500. For instance, that 450mm square x 65mm part. It's juuust bigger than the Y work envelope so would have to be rotated on the C-axis during machining to reach everything. Which raises the question of...how the hell do I probe it. Both the sides used to datum the Y axis are outside the envelope. Could be a moot point though as they may never make that part again.

    For my personal stuff, all of it would fit well inside the UMC500 and I don't mind subbing out the few things that are larger. The paid work I mentioned above...well, maybe it falls through but another opportunity comes up where the UMC would be the better choice. I don't want to lean on it too heavily. There's all kinds of work, and no machine fits it all. The most important thing is that it does what I want it to do.

    As far as tolerances, standard tolerances in my world have been:
    - h7 on 2-20mm holes
    - 25-50um flatness over <24" parts
    - 25um true position over distances <24"
    - Bore axes on orthogonal faces parallel to within 25-50um
    - Finishes on flat surfaces of ~8-16 uinch
    - Finishes on bores of <8 uinch

    Nothing really insane right? If the UMC can maintain accuracy like that across multiple sides without having to constantly re-probe and adjust, it could fit the bill.

    There isn't a perfect choice here.

    The Brother S1000X has the largest XY travels of anything that would easily fit into the garage. But the Z is limited and 5x capabilities limited.

    The UMC500 has a smaller 3x envelope but gives more design freedom and performance for 5x.

    The Okuma 460V is a nice mix. Good work envelope, great machine/control, full 5x capable w/ smaller envelope. But expensive and huge.

    The VF-2SSYT also has a good 3x work envelope, full 5x capable, but much smaller 5x work envelope.

    Any other options I should consider...?

    The products I'd like to prototype for myself are all things that'd fit in your hand, or on a tripod maybe. Even the smaller 5 axis rotaries are probably enough for that but I haven't seen one that can swing a 10" part at B90 without smacking the table. So the choice really is between big 3x/small 5x or big 5x/small 3x. Feel like I'm trying to predict the future either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    With the world going nuts about COVID, I can only hope. But I say that only because that is the end of the promotion according to Haas. How often they have these promotions, I haven't the foggiest.

    Good news from Selway though, they told me that by removing the tool carousel the machine can fit through the door.
    Machine tool sales were in a big slump well before COVID. Trade war + big election put a big damper on everyone's equipment purchasing plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post

    As far as tolerances, standard tolerances in my world have been:
    - h7 on 2-20mm holes
    - 25-50um flatness over <24" parts
    - 25um true position over distances <24"
    - Bore axes on orthogonal faces parallel to within 25-50um
    - Finishes on flat surfaces of ~8-16 uinch
    - Finishes on bores of <8 uinch

    Nothing really insane right?
    25um (~.001" total) true position over 600mm is a pretty tight tolerance. Certainly not insane, but even on a high end machine your not going to punch go on a first piece and hit that.

    Some of the others you posted are not super precision by any means, but many of them wouldn't normally be put in on a VMC, at least not where I have worked. Can you hit them with a good quality machine, certainly, but it doesn't make sense to.

    Based on those numbers, I wouldn't be looking at a Haas.

    But then again, I prototype and machine parts in a multitude of setups (did one recently that was 7 setups) the good, old, slow way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    But many of them wouldn't normally be put in on a VMC, at least not where I have worked. Can you hit them with a good quality machine, certainly, but it doesn't make sense to.
    Can you elaborate on this? What else would you put them in?

    For true position, I think there was maybe one part that needed that. Usually they could be modified as that accuracy was really only needed locally (within say 6") and not across the whole part. It's not a dealbreaker by any means, just trying to set an upper bound.

    I mentioned this way back in the thread: when I was at Tesla the in-house shop was all Haas. I think they had a couple Mori lathes but otherwise all Haas VMCs. They didn't have much issue with the tolerances we needed. h7 holes they could do all day (incorporating fit checks on the machine).

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Can you elaborate on this? What else would you put them in?
    It really depends on what you are making, other than orthogonal... we don't know much about your parts. Everywhere I have worked, stock comes in, it gets sawn, it gets turned or roughed into size, then it gets milled. Heat treat, then surface grind. It then always goes to Jig Grind first. They may only do dowel holes for location, any true position locations, precision holes etc, get jig ground. Then it goes to wire. After wire (depending on part/process) it gets hard turned, and then finally hard milled.

    It is much more economical to put hi tolerance holes in with a jig grinder or wire edm than to put them in on a VMC.

    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    I mentioned this way back in the thread: when I was at Tesla the in-house shop was all Haas. I think they had a couple Mori lathes but otherwise all Haas VMCs. They didn't have much issue with the tolerances we needed. h7 holes they could do all day (incorporating fit checks on the machine).
    You can absolutely hit some of those tolerances with a Haas, as I said, but you won't do it easily. It is all about process. Do you remember the process they used to put those H7 holes in? Most likely a boring head. How did they get an 8 micro inch finish? I would be curious to hear about that. I don't have a profilometer at my shop, but it takes a lot of care to get surface ground level finishes. All of those things can probably be done on a Haas but, as I said, it won't be easy. Chances are the Haas in the shop at Tesla had figured out their processes and tooling.

    One of my best friends still works at the Tier 1 I used to work at. He is in their advanced development department. They bought 3 tesla's to play with and study. This guy was a HUGE Musk fan and a AVID Tesla geek. One of the Tesla's they took apart 100% down to bare parts. Every assembly was disassembled and studied. He is no longer an avid Tesla geek. He was appalled at what they found. This was disappointing since my wife and I had been looking to buy one.

    I think in a way your going about this question the wrong way. When I was looking to purchase a machine I took specifications to the manufacturer and asked what they thought of them. Brother gave me a resounding yes, we can do that. Take those specifications you listed, and even better would be a blue print and a sample part to Haas and ask them to make you one. Brother offered to setup and make me some sample parts so that I could see them.

    Problem is, your going to need a way to measure them, which you haven't mentioned in your budget. I can't measure .001 true position over 24". Unless your going to use the machine that made the part to measure it...

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    Ah gotcha, interesting! Wire EDM isn't really in the equation here (most such holes are blind), nor is a jig borer (maybe in the future...).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    You can absolutely hit some of those tolerances with a Haas, as I said, but you won't do it easily. It is all about process. Do you remember the process they used to put those H7 holes in? Most likely a boring head. How did they get an 8 micro inch finish? I would be curious to hear about that. I don't have a profilometer at my shop, but it takes a lot of care to get surface ground level finishes. All of those things can probably be done on a Haas but, as I said, it won't be easy. Chances are the Haas in the shop at Tesla had figured out their processes and tooling.
    h7 were all interpolated. If I recall that was the limit of what they could do. No h6, for instance. Of course they couldn't hold the tolerance at like 4xD as was often called out, but those callouts were pretty much never actually necessary. For the most part the fine finishes were only ever needed where you could use a face mill and I believe that's what they used.

    One of my best friends still works at the Tier 1 I used to work at. He is in their advanced development department. They bought 3 tesla's to play with and study. This guy was a HUGE Musk fan and a AVID Tesla geek. One of the Tesla's they took apart 100% down to bare parts. Every assembly was disassembled and studied. He is no longer an avid Tesla geek. He was appalled at what they found. This was disappointing since my wife and I had been looking to buy one.
    Haha this is not surprising, but the internal shop was fantastic. Great group of guys with a ton of skill. They didn't run production parts though, I can't speak for whoever did. I'm curious what he took issue with. The drivetrain is generally pretty damn solid. Usually.

    Take those specifications you listed, and even better would be a blue print and a sample part to Haas and ask them to make you one. Brother offered to setup and make me some sample parts so that I could see them.

    Problem is, your going to need a way to measure them, which you haven't mentioned in your budget. I can't measure .001 true position over 24". Unless your going to use the machine that made the part to measure it...
    This is a good idea and something I'll look into, but I'm skeptical how useful this would be considering cycle time isn't a big issue. How often are the folks making the demo parts really using the full capability of the machine? That's a nice way of saying...how good are they as machinists? If the finish is bad is it the mill that's bad or the programming/setup/tooling? A good part can give you the maximum capability but a bad part doesn't necessarily give you the minimum, if that makes sense.

    For measurement I'll be limited to standard hand tools, height gauge, surface plate, pin gauges, etc. That's really enough for most of the work I've done prior. For things that require inspection or a report, I'll probably outsource the measurement. One of the eventual tasks once I learn to run any mill is to make a demo part including all kinds of features and tolerances and send it out for inspection to see how off the mark it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post

    Speaking of options, does anyone know what is included in the Haas 1k TSC option? Assuming you get the TSC-ready option, is it like the Brother where they just bolt on a high-pressure pump, or is extra plumbing/solenoids/filters involved?
    It depends if you get tsc ready, or actually get the tsc option. It is a separate pump and filter for tsc. Myself, I wouldn't get it unless you *know* you are going to be using long drills often enough to be worthwhile.

    edit: using coolant thru drills, which are considerably more $$ than a plain old hss drill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    It depends if you get tsc ready, or actually get the tsc option. It is a separate pump and filter for tsc. Myself, I wouldn't get it unless you *know* you are going to be using long drills often enough to be worthwhile.
    we got TSC with our umc and its one of the best decisions we've made. even though we dont drill a LOT, when we do, its just priceless, PLUS! i started using some endmills with coolant ports and its just incredible for that. the pump itself is really small/compact. however i noticed that it only puts out ~750psi on the larger tools, prob only get close to 1k on tiny stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    It depends if you get tsc ready, or actually get the tsc option. It is a separate pump and filter for tsc.
    That's the question: what comes with "TSC ready?" With the Brother it includes all plumbing/filters, you just add the high pressure pump. If it's similar for the UMC I can save ~6k by just purchasing a pump and installing it myself. Even a pump + filters is not difficult. But if there's more to it (a bunch of plumbing, some special mounting provision, etc. then it may not be worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    Ah gotcha, interesting! Wire EDM isn't really in the equation here (most such holes are blind), nor is a jig borer (maybe in the future...).



    h7 were all interpolated. If I recall that was the limit of what they could do. No h6, for instance. Of course they couldn't hold the tolerance at like 4xD as was often called out, but those callouts were pretty much never actually necessary. For the most part the fine finishes were only ever needed where you could use a face mill and I believe that's what they used.



    Haha this is not surprising, but the internal shop was fantastic. Great group of guys with a ton of skill. They didn't run production parts though, I can't speak for whoever did. I'm curious what he took issue with. The drivetrain is generally pretty damn solid. Usually.



    This is a good idea and something I'll look into, but I'm skeptical how useful this would be considering cycle time isn't a big issue. How often are the folks making the demo parts really using the full capability of the machine? That's a nice way of saying...how good are they as machinists? If the finish is bad is it the mill that's bad or the programming/setup/tooling? A good part can give you the maximum capability but a bad part doesn't necessarily give you the minimum, if that makes sense.

    For measurement I'll be limited to standard hand tools, height gauge, surface plate, pin gauges, etc. That's really enough for most of the work I've done prior. For things that require inspection or a report, I'll probably outsource the measurement. One of the eventual tasks once I learn to run any mill is to make a demo part including all kinds of features and tolerances and send it out for inspection to see how off the mark it is.
    I suspect it would be a good indicator for you. If it takes a great machinist to make the part, how easy or how difficult will it be for you? If they can toss the part in, and make it with little to no difficulty, then you shouldn’t have any problems? If it takes a really good machinist, who really knows his Haas, and it takes several tries for them to make a good part. . . While I agree it doesn’t really show you the true maximum or minimum, it gives you a baseline to compare against yourself.

    In short, if you go to Haas, and they have a bunch of high end trick tooling, their best most experienced machinist, and wicked crazy programming with in process probing and some macros to adjust, then your screwed.

    The majority of the tolerances you listed are going to require better than standard hand tools.

    In regards to the Tesla, a lot of rough manufacturing, some items were assembled and assembled correctly, and worked, but with no real location or way to assembly them correctly. Like if you positioned a motor and transmission together by hand instead of having dowel pins for location. One resounding comment was that there were way too many zip ties. Zip ties holding components together, zip ties holding interior panels, zip ties holding seemingly everything. The way he described it the seats were the only thing on the interior that was bolted down, everything else was zip tied. Components that would normally be bolted to the bottom of the car, zip tied. Other than that, super impressed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    The majority of the tolerances you listed are going to require better than standard hand tools.
    I suspected as much, but I don't mind buying nice tools when needed, plus the few extra I'll destroy while learning to run them. A good face mill and a set of boring heads should be enough to hit the tolerances I actually need, right? I can't increase my budget by 100k, so if I do end up being convinced to go full 5-axis the Haas is pretty much the only choice as far as I can see. In both cost and size. Even on the used market, what else is there that doesn't have a dramatically smaller envelope? Other choices for 3x mentioned above...Haas, Brother, Okuma (which is a big stretch).

    I will say this, it's easier for me to relax my requirements then stretch the budget for a machine that can meet them all. "Requirements" is too strong a word. More like "wish list." If I can only accept 20% of the potential work instead of 30%, with the benefit of more freedom for my own work, so be it.

    On a related note, just for shits and giggles, I drew up a dummy part and subplate just to see what I could fit in the UMC500. This is a 15" x 27" x 3" part. Provided the subplate is tall enough to clear the probe and trunnion mount, it'll fit with a 180° index (and maybe re-indicate) required to reach the entire part, and just enough room to fit a 1/2 end mill around the perimeter. Clearly a pain in the ass bumping this close to the limits, having to order cut-to-size stock, making sure I don't exceed the torque limits machining the ends, etc. but it's nice to know it's possible the one time a year I need it. Without re-probing after the index the stated 15° arcsecond accuracy gives a positioning error up to +/- 25um at the furthest extent of that part from the C-axis centerline, and a perpendicularity error (relative to platter surface) of +/- 5um on a bore that deep due to B-axis error. I can live with that.

    Speaking of re-indicating after an index, what about a couple of ring gauges or something bolted to the subplate or platter to use as a known reference? Anyone do anything like that?

    iso-subplate-part.jpg

    subplate-front.jpg

    subplate-side.jpg

    subplate-top.jpg

    Now someone tell me why this is a horrible idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SVFeingold View Post
    I suspected as much, but I don't mind buying nice tools when needed, plus the few extra I'll destroy while learning to run them. A good face mill and a set of boring heads should be enough to hit the tolerances I actually need, right? I can't increase my budget by 100k, so if I do end up being convinced to go full 5-axis the Haas is pretty much the only choice as far as I can see. In both cost and size. Even on the used market, what else is there that doesn't have a dramatically smaller envelope? Other choices for 3x mentioned above...Haas, Brother, Okuma (which is a big stretch).

    I will say this, it's easier for me to relax my requirements then stretch the budget for a machine that can meet them all. "Requirements" is too strong a word. More like "wish list." If I can only accept 20% of the potential work instead of 30%, with the benefit of more freedom for my own work, so be it.

    On a related note, just for shits and giggles, I drew up a dummy part and subplate just to see what I could fit in the UMC500. This is a 15" x 27" x 3" part. Provided the subplate is tall enough to clear the probe and trunnion mount, it'll fit with a 180° index (and maybe re-indicate) required to reach the entire part, and just enough room to fit a 1/2 end mill around the perimeter. Clearly a pain in the ass bumping this close to the limits, having to order cut-to-size stock, making sure I don't exceed the torque limits machining the ends, etc. but it's nice to know it's possible the one time a year I need it. Without re-probing after the index the stated 15° arcsecond accuracy gives a positioning error up to +/- 25um at the furthest extent of that part from the C-axis centerline, and a perpendicularity error (relative to platter surface) of +/- 5um on a bore that deep due to B-axis error. I can live with that.

    Speaking of re-indicating after an index, what about a couple of ring gauges or something bolted to the subplate or platter to use as a known reference? Anyone do anything like that?

    iso-subplate-part.jpg

    subplate-front.jpg

    subplate-side.jpg

    subplate-top.jpg

    Now someone tell me why this is a horrible idea.
    Nice screen grabs / renderings.

    Tool balls (precision tooling balls can be used and screwed into fixtures ) Similar in idea to your ring gauges.

    That's an old school 3d location technique.

    Where did you get 15 arc second accuracy from ?

    Some of the MAZAK Variaxis machines have a narrow X travel but deep Y , so if you have radially symmetric parts then you can swing such a part into the "machining volume" rotation by rotation.

    Cool that you figured out you could take the tool wheel off the UMC and make into a garage to make it a "Garage machine" .(Nice ! :-) ).

    Also it's not unusual to physically gauge features one way or another to correct placement of features over longer distances … Keep an eye on ambient temperatures , coolant temperatures and part temperatures.

    Some of this discussion makes me wonder if HAAS will REBOOT the VF2,3, 4 etc. or maybe even merge the VM lines (fine pitch ball screws) and throw in at least one linear scale that the control can handle ? (probably not ).

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    'ere @ SVFeingold

    can you explain what you did there ?

    UMC 500's table is round and you made a subplate that looks like a T slotted larger "Oval"-ish table ?

    Would be nice if there was the VM -ish version of the HAAS UMC 500...

    Nice discussion guys / everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Where did you get 15 arc second accuracy from ?

    Also it's not unusual to physically gauge features one way or another to correct placement of features over longer distances … Keep an eye on ambient temperatures , coolant temperatures and part temperatures.

    The 15 arcsecond came from this Haas service document for the UMC 750. It's dated 2019, so I assume it applies to the current gen, and further to the UMC-500.

    How much of an impact will coolant temp have? AFAIK the Haas doesn't have any kind of temperature control (cooled rails/bearings/screws/casting). It would be a straightforward (and pretty fun) project to add a chiller to keep the coolant at a given temperature. I may still have a line to get a recirculating chiller for cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    'ere @ SVFeingold

    can you explain what you did there ?

    UMC 500's table is round and you made a subplate that looks like a T slotted larger "Oval"-ish table ?
    Pretty much. It's not exactly polished, just seeing what would physically fit in the machine without hitting anything (except the spindle if you're not careful).

    subplate-iso.jpg
    platter-front.jpg

    As drawn and without any speed holes it adds about 150lb to the platter if made from cast aluminum. A chunk of 20 x 28 x 4" ATP5 is about $630 from Midwest Steel. Figure an outsourced subplate would cost ~3k or so plus any bushings/pins/etc. depending on how anal I want to get on the tolerances.

    I have no doubt this isn't the optimal way to design a subplate but it's a start! Currently wondering what the pros/cons of have a full round vs. chopped off sides. More spindle clearance on the latter to machine a side face I guess?

    The max size platter you can fit seems to be about 28" diameter before you have to worry about hitting the probe. You could go a little bigger if you put a radius on the platter around the B-C intersection to allow a little more edge clearance. Ignoring the probe you get another inch before you have to worry about hitting the front of the trunnion. Any bigger than that and you have to go above the trunnion and probe, and never move the B axis...also not be able to reach the probe without rotating the platter out of the way. That's firmly in "not worth it" territory but hey, 28" isn't bad!

    And you could fit two standard Orange vises on that bad boy.
    orange-vise.jpg

    Probe clearance @ 28"
    probe-clearance.jpg

    Before I bothered with getting something like that fabbed I'd probably send it to Haas and say "what'd I miss?"

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