buying a "starter" CNC Lathe - Tormach, used older machine, etc.

I've searched older posts but it's 2020 and would like a more modern take on this question. I'm looking to get a CNC lathe that fits my needs.

I'm going into business on the side building scale steam and gas engines (I'm otherwise currently employed full time). I've taken a bunch of machining/cnc classes at local community college but don't do it professionally, until now. I'm definitely a beginner at lathe work. I'm looking at doing low quantity production, ranging from 1-off to 50 part runs.

The work itself I think is pretty basic stuff:
Cutting steel shafts ~1" diameter, up to about 10 or 12" in length.
steel pins, i.e. 1144 in varying sizes up to 1" diameter, few inches in length.
Cutting pretty basic radius profiles (i.e. G71) on larger diameter stuff, maybe 6 or 8" diameter, aluminum, cast iron, steel. 11 inch diameter would be a plus but not a hard requirement.
Threading brass & steel custom fittings, but nothing crazy.
No crazy tolerances
The pins/shafts will be seeing press-fits, so a machine that can hold the tolerance necessary for that (.001, tighter?) would be good.

A couple thoughts:
- Pretty sure a tailstock is a hard requirement for the shafts.
- Hand-coding is adequate, but RS232 or equivalent for CAM is a nice plus.
- Not sure tool changer is an absolute necessity. Gang is probably fine, and probably QCTP in a pinch.
- the lathe does NOT need to be a "job shop" workhorse. It will not be cutting 18 hours a day. Maybe a few hours a day, and it may sit unused for days on end.
- I like the Tormach a lot, but I understand it's basically a lot more expensive than a used and far more capable older machine.
- I need something turn-key. I see a lot of people saying "oh you can pick up a 25 year old XYZ cheap and replace the whatever whatever." Sure, if you've been working with that machine for 10 years and know it inside and out. But I don't. I do not have the time or wherewithal to troubleshoot a machine right now.
- I'm not completely sure it makes sense to invest more than 8 or 10k on a machine to begin with, as opposed to outsourcing the parts.
- Since I'm a beginner, it would be nice to have something I can ask others questions about if they crop up.

Basically the options I see are:
Tormach Slant-Pro - seems great, but kinda pricey
Tormach Rapidturn (I have free&unlimited access to a Tormach mill) not sure can handle tolerance
used bigger machines, Hardinge, Bridgeport, Mazak. Good stuff, but not practically familiar with these.
some smaller oddball machines i.e. Microkinetics 1236, Dynamyte 3000 ideal size, but not very familiar.
Familiar with Haas but they seem too big/expensive for my needs.

So, what would you recommend? Would love specific machine models if you know them.

I'm already starting to think I'm asking for the impossible. Sorry for the beginner naivety. Thanks in advance.

I'll leave this here -

The biggest problem with a used Haas brand lathe (of any size) is for some reason the resale values are stupid high, likely much more than the actual worth (ok peanut gallery )....

I wouldn't go Tormach. You mention G71, so I guess you are looking at cnc lathes? There are alot more knowledgeable lathe guys than me here. Hope you get some guidance.

Three suggestions:

Anything
but
Tormach

you might look at a Haas st10 or st15 ..
I got a new ST15 a year ago and it has been a super machine. no its not a Mori or a Mazak but its also not in there price range ,, one big upside is the control is vary user friendly and machine is super fast to setup, in under 30 min I can go from job to job and just have it spitting out parts with the bar feeder and parts catcher, For the most part I hate lathe work and the less time and more friendly a turning center is the happier I am ,,, I have had a 2000 model SL10 for years and it still holds +/- .0002 all day and has never been been worked on ,,

Three suggestions:

Anything
but
Tormach

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I wouldn't go Tormach. You mention G71, so I guess you are looking at cnc lathes?

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What's wrong with Tormach? and Yes, looking at CNC.

I should probably clarify. Buying a CNC lathe here is a business decision. It needs to be worth it. It needs to provide significant value over outsourcing the jobs.

Dishing out 30k for a Haas would be a stupid decision for my light occasional work. Given the volume at work at hand, I don't think anything over 10k could be justified.

Miserlou57 said:

I should probably clarify. Buying a CNC lathe here is a business decision. It needs to be worth it. It needs to provide significant value over outsourcing the jobs.

Dishing out 30k for a Haas would be a stupid decision for my light occasional work. Given the volume at work at hand, I don't think anything over 10k could be justified.

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I'm in a similar boat and I keep looking for older Okumas and Mazaks. They're workhorses, but I don't think you'll find a nice one under 10k. Or, at least I've not had any luck.

Miserlou57 said:

What's wrong with Tormach? and Yes, looking at CNC.

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Might be a shorter answer asking what's right with a tormach...

Miserlou57 said:

I should probably clarify. Buying a CNC lathe here is a business decision. It needs to be worth it. It needs to provide significant value over outsourcing the jobs.

Dishing out 30k for a Haas would be a stupid decision for my light occasional work. Given the volume at work at hand, I don't think anything over 10k could be justified.

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I think you answered your own question. Job it out until your volume justifies the purchase of a decent machine.

I've seen in a few threads a "decent machine" could be had for under 10k. I'd love some suggestions.

30K might be your upfront cost , but when you own the machine for 10 years and sell it for 20K what is the real cost of owning it? when you really stop and think about the building , power , tooling , coolant , ETC it becomes clear fast that the machine is the cheap part of running a shop ,,

So yes you can buy a POS used and tired machine for lets say 10K and in 10 years its going to be worth $100 a ton or you can buy a nice machine and make parts for 10 years and have the machine pay its self back multiple times a year ,,,

I have had a LOT of new machines over the last 30 years and just about everyone has payed its self back in under 3 or 4 months ,, and the few that did not pay for them self in a vary short time were removed from the shop do to problems outside of my control ,,,

Miserlou57 said:

Dishing out 30k for a Haas would be a stupid decision for my light occasional work. Given the volume at work at hand, I don't think anything over 10k could be justified.

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"The mission drives the gear train."

You seem to have an amortization amount and period in mind, which gives you a budget, but you also need to make sure you have something that gets the job done reliably and repeatably.

If your products could make the payment, then it would not be stupid to pay many times that on a brand new machine with support and a warranty. If the products cannot make any payment, then you don't have a viable business, you have a hobby. If your budget is $10k, you are looking at a late 90s model around here. No idea what your local prices are like.

D.D.Machine said:

30K might be your upfront cost , but when you own the machine for 10 years and sell it for 20K what is the real cost of owning it? when you really stop and think about the building , power , tooling , coolant , ETC it becomes clear fast that the machine is the cheap part of running a shop ,,

So yes you can buy a POS used and tired machine for lets say 10K and in 10 years its going to be worth $100 a ton or you can buy a nice machine and make parts for 10 years and have the machine pay its self back multiple times a year ,,,

I have had a LOT of new machines over the last 30 years and just about everyone has payed its self back in under 3 or 4 months ,, and the few that did not pay for them self in a vary short time were removed from the shop do to problems outside of my control ,,,

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I don't doubt for a second these machines are easily worth it to bigger shops turning parts out all day every day. If you read my post, you'll see I'm clearly not one of those cases

You're not going to get many on here to say anything good about Tormach. PM members aren't the target audience.

That said, you might be the rare person that a tormach would be a good fit for. Check out Robin Renzetti on YouTube and Instagram, he turns out nice work on one in seemingly good time, but he's also done a bunch of modifications so you wouldn't get the same results turnkey.

And one more thought-do you need a CNC lathe to start?
Might want to do your prototyping on a manual lathe, and some one off stuff isn't worth programming. Make and sell something and then you may be comfortable spending the $20-30K a decent used machine is likely to cost.

For under $10k there are quite a few decent quality, CNC lathes in acceptable condition. Ebay and Craigs are great places. Basically any name brand machine would work. I'd stay away from oddballs and orphans due to parts availability.

Here is a Tormach lathe for sale near me. Tormach 15L Slant pro cnc Lathe - Miscellaneous Tools - Monee, Illinois | Facebook Marketplace
No turret on it though. The big advantage I see for these is lower power requirements. Rapids on it seem very slow to me.
I think it is a good home shop machine. Spend a little more for a Haas and you will gain a lot more speed.
There really are not many Tormachs for sale so it is hard to tell about the real resale value.
Check out the difference in weight, tells a lot about stability.
What year Haas controls are no longer supported? Important before purchase.

Dave

Might want to do your prototyping on a manual lathe, and some one off stuff isn't worth programming. Make and sell something and then you may be comfortable spending the $20-30K a decent used machine is likely to cost.

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That's a good point. Just using a manual isn't out of the question. I didn't really think to mention it here, but it's a serious consideration since some of the parts are very simple and it would work for most of the stuff, and they're cheap. There are a handful of things I couldn't do on the manual, and I've learned how to do the CNC so I'd like to use that skill, again if I can justify the machine price tag.

I was (and still am) an advocate for the idea that a good CNC mill can be made to efficiently do anything a manual mill can do, once you climb the learning curve. I used to think that was true of lathes as well, but have retracted that view with respect to lathes. (Because I had a CNC lathe that was obstructive to use.)

Point? Everything described in the original post can likely be done with manual lathe, equiped with a tailstock, decent tool post, sound compound (top slide), and a radius attachment.

Most steam engines (and likely most engines you want to build a model kit for) predate CNC - so if you are copying/downscaling parts, you can be sure it was doable on a manual lathe.

Buying a new manual lathe is fraught, and you really want a DRO - but should be doable for way less money than the other suggestions. Keep in mind such issues as floor space, 3-phase power, and the like as well.

Note also that Tormach's cheapest Slantpro seems to be about $21K (rather more than $10K), [though the banner at the top of their web page say $16K... ???] While a Haas TL1 is apparently currently on sale for $26K. (Neither of those prices will include all of the relevent materials - chuck, toolpost, etc.)

I have a manual lathe I rather like, bought new 2 or 3 years ago - but it was nearly $20K then and is well clear of $20K now.

I will note that Robin Renzetti seems to use a tormach lathe (which he's made some changes to) -
TORMACH SLANT PRO 34 SECOND PULLEY CHANGE - YouTube

The problem with this is Renzetti is about a 12th stage Jedi Special Parts Master Wizard, so some things he can do easily might be rather harder for you or me....

I can't comment on the overall reputation of this brand of machine, but I did run the same one at my previous job for about 4 years. It never had a problem and held good tolerances.

Clausing Colchester CNC 200 Lathe | eBay

I understand not wanting to buy a boat anchor that needs constant work and attention but there are older machines out there that will still run all day and make good parts. Not to mention, just because a machine is new doesn't mean it won't have problems. The shop I work for has a bunch of Mori Seikis and Matsuuras (fairly new, 5-7 years old) that have had plenty of problems and usually take weeks to fix. The okumas are the only ones that have been rock solid, at least since I've been there.

It's easy for the guys who already have shops and customers to say that you're better off spending 30-50k etc, it will pay for itself in no time, and they are right. But when you're just trying to get started on your own side hustle that's a hard pill to swallow. I have under 10k in my mill, including tooling, it's a full size vmc, makes good parts and has been reliable despite being 24 years old. The best part is its paid for and if it sits for days or weeks it's not a big deal.

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winger said:

Here is a Tormach lathe for sale near me. Tormach 15L Slant pro cnc Lathe - Miscellaneous Tools - Monee, Illinois | Facebook Marketplace
No turret on it though. The big advantage I see for these is lower power requirements. Rapids on it seem very slow to me.
I think it is a good home shop machine. Spend a little more for a Haas and you will gain a lot more speed.
There really are not many Tormachs for sale so it is hard to tell about the real resale value.
Check out the difference in weight, tells a lot about stability.
What year Haas controls are no longer supported? Important before purchase.

Dave

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Good find, thank you. I struggle to find used Slant Pro's for sale, and this seems cheap compared to new. Its pretty far away but at that price I'd consider shipping.

cb750chris said:

I can't comment on the overall reputation of this brand of machine, but I did run the same one at my previous job for about 4 years. It never had a problem and held good tolerances.

Clausing Colchester CNC 200 Lathe | eBay

I understand not wanting to buy a boat anchor that needs constant work and attention but there are older machines out there that will still run all day and make good parts. Not to mention, just because a machine is new doesn't mean it won't have problems. The shop I work for has a bunch of Mori Seikis and Matsuuras (fairly new, 5-7 years old) that have had plenty of problems and usually take weeks to fix. The okumas are the only ones that have been rock solid, at least since I've been there.

It's easy for the guys who already have shops and customers to say that you're better off spending 30-50k etc, it will pay for itself in no time, and they are right. But when you're just trying to get started on your own side hustle that's a hard pill to swallow. I have under 10k in my mill, including tooling, it's a full size vmc, makes good parts and has been reliable despite being 24 years old. The best part is its paid for and if it sits for days or weeks it's not a big deal.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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Really liking this machine, and it's the right price. Plus its local to me. This is really along the lines of what I was looking for in this thread. I've heard of Clausing and suspect they're a good contender, but I don't have the industry experience to know. thanks for the link.