Thread: Buying your first VMC

If you want a quiet compressor get a Jun or Silentaire. They literally sound like fish tank pumps. Not going to run a bunch of air tools with one, but more than enough for a minimill.

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I had a MiniMill2. It was very easy to run. Get rigid tapping of course. Be sure to get the high speed machining (as I think they call it) option. It will definitely be worth it. You can get it later, it's just a code to turn on the feature already in the control, but usually one can get a bit of a deal with purchase. Profiling and pocketing will run much faster, especially with chip thinning tool paths. Using that sort of machining technique will be a very good thing on that machine. IIRC there is a sale right now, don't know if the MM2 is on that list. I hope it is for your sake.
I did have a couple of problems that were not huge. Mine had the tool changer motor go out under warranty, and then a couple more times later. I think they had a bad batch of those. They also used the poorest quality plastic lines for coolant and air going to the spindle area. Not a giant deal, fairly easy to replace.
Also get the programmable coolant nozzle - that makes life a lot better. I did not have a chip auger, and it wasn't a problem. You will want to do a thorough cleaning of the coolant tank area once a month or so, maybe even make an extra screen to keep chips out of the intake. My machine was new in 2012, and I think they've redesigned the base since then.
I found the Haas control the easiest to use of those I've experience with. I didn't use the conversational. It has changed since mine, of course.
I bought a Polar Air rotary compressor a few years ago, decent price. It's been good.
Good luck!

Thanks eaglemike for your advice. Much appreciated. I will look at high speed machining.

Would programable coolant be necessary if I have TSC?

I think my first project I will try and make is a pocket knife. I know this is a pretty competitive market and probably not the direction I would end up going. However I already have my military buddies that all ate lining up to buy a custom knife with some military significance cut into the handle. It seems like a good way to get paid to learn (provided I can learn how to make a decent product).

I am excited about what next year will bring.

Thanks everyone for weighing in.

Scott

what's your rough budget #? everyone on here loves to put a budgetary list together for you. are you confined to single phase only? of the options you mentioned probing is a big bang for the buck with haas you get just about every control option in the package tough to beat and great for a lot applications. tsc like mentioned for starters i'd ditch and spend that coin elswhere. chip auger is nice if you are running production but that money in your instance may be better spent elsewhere. options almost every Haas gets outfitted with is programmable coolant and get it wired for a 4th axis for future needs. good starting point is add 10% of machine cost for tooling and another 10% for workholding.

Depending on if you have any limits on power and entrance to your shop i'd compare the MM to a VF-1/2. Really depends on parts and scope of work the MM can run out of space quick.

Costs add up quick make sure you skip some unnecessary luxuries and don't skimp on the basics.

I don't think programmable coolant is a big deal. I just use a spreader nozzle oriented vertically:
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09778168

When I'm not using TSC that is.

There's a lot of times you will not be using TSC, IMHO. Getting every tool and holder to use TSC would be pricey. Maybe your parts won't need the variety of tools though. (I would definitely get the programmable nozzle) I used a wide variety of tool lengths in mine. I also had a couple of loc-line nozzles. I did buy the high flow coolant pump. I'm not sure if you can get the high flow pump on single phase - the pump actually uses a fair amount of juice. Three phase is a very good thing if you can. Just mentioning this since it was mentioned earlier in the thread.
If you don't get the programmable nozzle, you can set up a manifold with a few of the spreader nozzles. I just know that for my parts I'd have needed more than one of them - but that's just me. I did find the spreaders would plug up a bit at times. I ran mostly aluminum. some mild steel, some 1144, some 416, and a bit of 17-4 H900.

Duce and Eagle Mike, thanks for the input.

I am rewiring my detached garage. It currently has 100amp single phase. I plan to install a rotary phase converter. Although if I cut out TSC then I could run the MM2 on single phase and save some money there.

My budget is approx $100,000. I am budgeting about $70,000 for the mill and $30,000 for everything else in the shop. I will NOT be incurring any debt for this.

Tooling is where I am at the beginning of my research. It is a big topic to wade through. I kind of feel like the sales rep has the upper hand at this point. I am learning and In the mean time going through all my fathers old tooling to see what will work with the new machine.

I though about 4th axis wiring, but for the price and size of work space on the MM2, I think it might be good money spent wrong. I realize 5 axis is the future and a must have to be a serious shop. For now though I look at the MM2 as this is my learning machine. To put a rotary table on a MM2 with 5 axis wiring is almost $20,000.

I have considered a VF1 and it is tempting for an extra $10,000 I can be into a significantly larger machine. But I need to draw the line somewhere and keep the wife comfortable with the purchase.

Keep the advice coming. It is good to hear other opinions than youtube channels and sales reps.

Thanks Scott

Originally Posted by eaglemike

There's a lot of times you will not be using TSC, IMHO.

I have very few holders that aren't TSC. I just get all of the pull studs as the TSC variant, and every collet holder with a standard collet is TSC. Most of my shrink fits are TSC, they weren't much more expensive than the non-TSC variant. TSC almost always works better than flood when it can be used; the only exceptions are small, very high RPM tools (>10K RPM), and you won't be spinning that fast in a minimill.

Sorry, I forgot to reply to the size of my shop. It is a double car garage 21’x 22’ my celing height is 110” and the garage door is 94” high. So a MM2 and VF1/2 will fit in there no problem.

Originally Posted by mhajicek

I have very few holders that aren't TSC. I just get all of the pull studs as the TSC variant, and every collet holder is TSC. Most of my shrink fits are TSC, they weren't much more expensive than the non-TSC variant. TSC almost always works better than flood when it can be used; the only exceptions are small, very high RPM tools (>10K RPM), and you won't be spinning that fast in a minimill.

It's going to depend on the work he does, of course. A TSC pump is going to need more power.
I think there are better options for the mill, but I could be wrong.

TSC bumps the power requirements from single phase to three phase.

I am fine with installing a rotary phase converter.

My understanding is TSC is better for chip evacuation. I understand that TSC tooling is more expensive, and replacing worn out bits can be costly. But I feel that in the beginning I will not be cutting anything close to production. In fact I plan to go at a snails pace to reduce the risk of crashing. So I am ok with spending a bit more on tooling. But I am open to other opinions.

Scott

To switch up the conversation a bit what are peoples thought on a Brother vs a HAAS? I am not married to any brand yet.

If you get a RPC definitely get an American Rotary. I am running a Doosan DNM5700 with TSC+flood and a 4th at the same time as a Hyundai-KIA SKT250 lathe and the 75hp ADX doesn't even flinch and this is with the air compressor going also (Atlas-Copco 5hp). Atlas-Copco sales talked me out of a larger compressor saying with my air usage needs it wouldn't run enough to burn off the oil residue. The smaller one was cheaper also of course.

You would not need nearly as large a RPC as a 75hp so the cost ends up being lower. The 75hp ADX is their most expensive single unit and it was $5k. I used the code from Vintage Machinery on YouTube and it knocked 10% off. Fantastic deal. Never an issue in 3 years now.

Originally Posted by Scott9805

My budget is approx $100,000. I am budgeting about $70,000 for the mill and $30,000 for everything else in the shop.

You're never going to earn this back, you know. Just in case you thought this hobby was going to pay for itself ....

Emanuel, I appreciate your concern and candid opinion.

My goal is not to ‘earn’ the money back. I want to learn and enjoy making things.

While I might have an optimistic opinion of myself, I do believe that if I put my mind to it I could certainly recoup my investment costs. But if I don’t, then at least I can make my own washers and have fun doing it.

I hope you have a great day.

Scott

Originally Posted by Scott9805

Sorry, I forgot to reply to the size of my shop. It is a double car garage 21’x 22’ my celing height is 110” and the garage door is 94” high. So a MM2 and VF1/2 will fit in there no problem.

If push comes to shove with regards to your budget, you will not regret getting a bare bones VF2 over a well optioned MM2.

IMHO.

Originally Posted by Scott9805

While I might have an optimistic opinion of myself, I do believe that if I put my mind to it I could certainly recoup my investment costs.

Not concerned, and not criticizing your opinion, just a reality check. If you can charge $60/hr, then consumables and electric and so on will eat up $20 of that so you can recoup $40/hr if you don't pay yourself a single penny and nothing ever breaks. If you bonk the spindle and if costs $5,000 to fix, add more hours.

This is not including software and learning time and interfacing time and general computer time, billing, record-keeping, making collections calls, etc.

So you would have to keep the machine filled with work for let's say 3,000 hours not including anything else before you broke even.

In the real world, I'd expect it to take 10,000 hours of pretty-busy before you break even. That's five years of forty hour weeks.

I know it looks exciting now but it's a pretty good bet that after the first six months it won't be nearly as much fun. Maybe ... you never know the future .... but seems like most people get into machining because they want to make something, not drive a cnc machine for a hobby because it looks interesting.

Of course it's your decision but a hundred grand is not peanuts. You could find out if you actually like this stuff for a hell of a lot less, like ten percent of that, then step up if you do. This is kind of like buying a 50' sailboat to see if you like the water ... from Omaha. And you can't swim.

I know you can learn, but do you really want to ?

"I know you can learn, but do you really want to ?"

That sounds to me like his main goal, for him and his son. Highly commendable In my mind, his son could walk into a set of skills he could use in almost every aspect of his life. CNC machining can be a lot of fun if you are not with your back against the wall with payments and if they find it is not as interesting as he thought it would be, as mentioned above low hour modern machines carry a good resale.

I would lean more to the VF1/2 but that is likely because that is what I am used to. In the begining the CAD/CAM was the hard part for me as there are a lot of variables there, the machine simply does what you tell it to do and if you go slow and watch it you won't have too many problems with learning to use it.

Originally Posted by kustomizer

CNC machining can be a lot of fun if you are not with your back against the wall with payments ...

Agree totally ! And the software part, too ...

BRIDGEPORT VMC-760 VERTICAL MACHINING CENTER 4 axis $13,000

Originally Posted by Scott9805

To switch up the conversation a bit what are peoples thought on a Brother vs a HAAS? I am not married to any brand yet.

OK, well, you started it

I have a Speedio S700X1. Its great. It will run production parts way, way faster than a Haas MM. But it's 30-taper, and the MM is 40-taper. If you are job-shopping, running a couple of these and a few of those, the speed of the Brother won't be much of a factor since you'll spend way more time programming and setting up than actually machining (Xometry anyone? )

You can get the TSI prep package on a Speedio which is all the plumbing and filtering (plus some other nice options), then add the pump down the road if/when you need it. That's what I did when I bought mine in 2016, and haven't added the pump yet. The pump ain't cheap, way more than the whole Haas TSI package.

There's no "safe mode" with a Speedio. You can dial back the rapids and feeds at the console, but that's it.

No 1-phase option with Speedio, so you need to make 3-phase. Not a lot of amperage, but it needs to be clean 200-230V 3-phase.

Speedio fits easily in your space. I can move my S700X1 with a pallet jack.

Regards.

Mike