Bying a compact 5 axis cnc.

R_mantis · Feb 7, 2021

Hello!
I'm looking for a compact 5 axis mill for machining medical prototypes (for a business) that's capable of machining stainless steel mainly ( in some cases titanium but not a priority right now though) and also capable of machining parts that are 200mm in maximum length . My budget is relatively humble and is around 40k dollars (50k dollars max if necessary). Also the machine needs to be new (some bs laws in my country). Can you give me some tips and suggestions please?
Any help is welcome.
Thanks in advance.

ripperj · Feb 7, 2021

Never going to happen for 50k

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R_mantis · Feb 7, 2021

ripperj said:
Never going to happen for 50k

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thank you for your reply, there are some machines in that price range ( the mda precision TN5-V6-TC8 for example ). Since there are some experienced machinists here, i thought someone could give me an idea of a machine i maybe missed while looking or guide me to search better. Thank you for your concern though.

Hardplates · Feb 7, 2021

ripperj said:
Never going to happen for 50k

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I'll second that, not a new machine anyway.

I've seen some 14-20 year old 5 axis machines go cheap, but you had better know your way around diagnosing and repairing it.

R_mantis · Feb 7, 2021

Hardplates said:
I'll second that, not a new machine anyway.

I've seen some 14-20 year old 5 axis machines go cheap, but you had better know your way around diagnosing and repairing it.

thank you.

mhajicek · Feb 7, 2021

R_mantis said:
thank you for your reply, there are some machines in that price range ( the mda precision TN5-V6-TC8 for example ). Since there are some experienced machinists here, i thought someone could give me an idea of a machine i maybe missed while looking or guide me to search better. Thank you for your concern though.

That MDA machine is a high-end hobbyists toy. You might be able to make a reduced quality prototype or two, after a long and arduous hair-pulling endeavor, but you will never get a reliable and profitable production process going on it. I make Ti bone plates on a 2015 Haas VF-3SS with trunnion, which cost $170k new (CAT-40 15,000RPM spindle, 1000PSI TSC, 41 tools, probing, HSM, etc.), and it's about the minimum machine I'd ever want to try this with. I use 21 tools on my most common plate, that 8 tool ATC will be useless. I also put over $35k into software, and a bunch more into tooling to get started. I'd say $1/4 million could get you off the ground.

I would be happy to quote your parts for you.

Orange Vise · Feb 7, 2021

Medical machining is a high dollar industry.

Even at 5X your budget, i.e. $250K as @mhajicek mentioned, equipment cost is still just a small overall component.

The dominant cost in any sort of complex machining, especially prototyping, is labor. When the cost of equipment is disproportionately low compared to the cost of labor, you're often just wasting time - and you're paying for that time in the form of wages/salary. If YOU are the labor and just figure you won't pay yourself that much, you still have to factor in opportunity cost.

Can you subcontract the work?

rcoope · Feb 7, 2021

Similar to mhajicek, we have a VM-3 with the new TRT-160 compact 5 axis unit. This has a maximum rotational part size of 160mm so smaller than what you need but a lot bigger than the MDA machine. These larger trunnions are also not particularly fast so if you were doing a lot of surfacing you'd want proper five axis, in which case you are probably looking at well north of $250K.

Is the new machine law in your country related to making medical devices or some other institutional policy? There's obviously a big difference between making prototypes as a design company or research institution and sticking them in cadavers or sheep, vs making the same devices as a medical device manufacturer for people.

sirAIG · Feb 7, 2021

I'm not trying to be cynical (though it inevitably is), but I would just kick this id3a out of your head. True medical quality 5ax parts will take a lot more then 50k in equipment. Not to mention the fact that if you have to ask, you're in way over your head.

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Mtndew · Feb 8, 2021

R_mantis said:
Can you give me some tips and suggestions please?
Any help is welcome.
Thanks in advance.

The best tip you will get is to save up a lot more money.

metalmadness · Feb 8, 2021

Ill just jump in to echo what others have said...

Even if you wanted a 3 axis machine for $50K you'd be quite limited as far as industrial grade machines are concerned. Let's consider $50k the bare minimum for any brand new industrial grade CNC mill.

For reference, our Hurco 5 axis mill cost us $180K with some options (and not even all the options). Add another $15k for shrink fit tooling, another $3k+ for basic fixturing options. This machine has 198mm platter, and can do parts much bigger than that. Example I ran a 12"x4"x4" block in the machine with some 5 axis simultaneous toolpaths, so its a pretty large work envelope for such a small machine.

I would strongly guide ANYONE buying a 5 axis mill AWAY from buying a 3 axis mill and slapping a $40K trunnion on it. For that money you may as well buy a UMC 500SS or something. You limit your Z travel on a trunnion setup like that and your work cube is shrunk so small to be practically useless for any work over lets say 100mm diameter.

How are you going to drive complex 5-axis toolpaths? You need software. Mastercam Multiaxis lets call that $30K/seat. You don't want to crash this very expensive machine tool do you? Vericut verification simulator software $25K/seat.

Your code needs to be good, right? No funny business moves? 5 Axis Postability Post Processor - $10K+.

Also you need someone who can program the damn machine and run it without breaking it - $60K/year.

Forgetting the labor, youre looking at a quarter of a million dollars without even trying very hard, for an entry level 5 axis milling center. Look into machines like DMU, Hermle, Matsuura, etc youre going to be more like half a million dollars.

Machining in GENERAL is alot more expensive that non-tradespeople assume!

Good luck in your searches.

G00 Proto · Feb 8, 2021

The most budget minded setup that I would even consider to make decent parts would be the Haas Minimill, with a Z axis riser block with a TRT100 or TRT70 (depending on the diameter of the part you are planning to machine).

Even the base model machine (6000 RPM, High Speed Machining, Extended Z), plus the 4th and 5th axis drives, plus the TRT70 will run you about $79k.

I have made thousands of Ti and SS parts on my Mini-Mills. I have had at least one in the lineup since ~2000 when they came out.

There are better machines out there (obviously), but this has the best value preposition for me.

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

mhajicek said:
That MDA machine is a high-end hobbyists toy. You might be able to make a reduced quality prototype or two, after a long and arduous hair-pulling endeavor, but you will never get a reliable and profitable production process going on it. I make Ti bone plates on a 2015 Haas VF-3SS with trunnion, which cost $170k new (CAT-40 15,000RPM spindle, 1000PSI TSC, 41 tools, probing, HSM, etc.), and it's about the minimum machine I'd ever want to try this with. I use 21 tools on my most common plate, that 8 tool ATC will be useless. I also put over $35k into software, and a bunch more into tooling to get started. I'd say $1/4 million could get you off the ground.

I would be happy to quote your parts for you.

Thank you for your reply, i appreciate the offer and the advice thank you but 1/4 million would be very far from what i could get as a budget to start this project.

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

Orange Vise said:
Medical machining is a high dollar industry.

Even at 5X your budget, i.e. $250K as @mhajicek mentioned, equipment cost is still just a small overall component.

The dominant cost in any sort of complex machining, especially prototyping, is labor. When the cost of equipment is disproportionately low compared to the cost of labor, you're often just wasting time - and you're paying for that time in the form of wages/salary. If YOU are the labor and just figure you won't pay yourself that much, you still have to factor in opportunity cost.

Can you subcontract the work?

I would be doing the work mainly. I would prefer not subcontracting the work since i was looking to start my own small business.

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

sirAIG said:
I'm not trying to be cynical (though it inevitably is), but I would just kick this id3a out of your head. True medical quality 5ax parts will take a lot more then 50k in equipment. Not to mention the fact that if you have to ask, you're in way over your head.

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The fact that i'm asking doesn't have anything to do with whether or not i'm in over my head. You cant expect someone to be always up to date with the machines in the market since i'm not always buying machines on a monthly basis so asking wouldn't hurt. Sir, i live in a third world country with not that many dealers of cnc machines, in fact you can count them with one hand and almost all of them sell wood cnc routers. To put things into perspective i for one know that 50k is not that much, but here it's the equivalent of almost 300k considering the annual per capita income. I'm just trying to build something with what i have.
Thank you for your reply though.

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

Mtndew said:
The best tip you will get is to save up a lot more money.

thank you.

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

G00 Proto said:
The most budget minded setup that I would even consider to make decent parts would be the Haas Minimill, with a Z axis riser block with a TRT100 or TRT70 (depending on the diameter of the part you are planning to machine).

Even the base model machine (6000 RPM, High Speed Machining, Extended Z), plus the 4th and 5th axis drives, plus the TRT70 will run you about $79k.

I have made thousands of Ti and SS parts on my Mini-Mills. I have had at least one in the lineup since ~2000 when they came out.

There are better machines out there (obviously), but this has the best value preposition for me.

Thank you for your reply, i'm considering upping my budget a bit to afford one mini mill with 4th and 5th axis , do think they would the job properly from your experience?

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

metalmadness said:
Ill just jump in to echo what others have said...

Even if you wanted a 3 axis machine for $50K you'd be quite limited as far as industrial grade machines are concerned. Let's consider $50k the bare minimum for any brand new industrial grade CNC mill.

For reference, our Hurco 5 axis mill cost us $180K with some options (and not even all the options). Add another $15k for shrink fit tooling, another $3k+ for basic fixturing options. This machine has 198mm platter, and can do parts much bigger than that. Example I ran a 12"x4"x4" block in the machine with some 5 axis simultaneous toolpaths, so its a pretty large work envelope for such a small machine.

I would strongly guide ANYONE buying a 5 axis mill AWAY from buying a 3 axis mill and slapping a $40K trunnion on it. For that money you may as well buy a UMC 500SS or something. You limit your Z travel on a trunnion setup like that and your work cube is shrunk so small to be practically useless for any work over lets say 100mm diameter.

How are you going to drive complex 5-axis toolpaths? You need software. Mastercam Multiaxis lets call that $30K/seat. You don't want to crash this very expensive machine tool do you? Vericut verification simulator software $25K/seat.

Your code needs to be good, right? No funny business moves? 5 Axis Postability Post Processor - $10K+.

Also you need someone who can program the damn machine and run it without breaking it - $60K/year.

Forgetting the labor, youre looking at a quarter of a million dollars without even trying very hard, for an entry level 5 axis milling center. Look into machines like DMU, Hermle, Matsuura, etc youre going to be more like half a million dollars.

Machining in GENERAL is alot more expensive that non-tradespeople assume!

Good luck in your searches.

Thank you for all the info it's been helpful to me.

R_mantis · Feb 13, 2021

rcoope said:
Similar to mhajicek, we have a VM-3 with the new TRT-160 compact 5 axis unit. This has a maximum rotational part size of 160mm so smaller than what you need but a lot bigger than the MDA machine. These larger trunnions are also not particularly fast so if you were doing a lot of surfacing you'd want proper five axis, in which case you are probably looking at well north of $250K.

Is the new machine law in your country related to making medical devices or some other institutional policy? There's obviously a big difference between making prototypes as a design company or research institution and sticking them in cadavers or sheep, vs making the same devices as a medical device manufacturer for people.

thank you for your reply, the parts are intended for people.

mhajicek · Feb 13, 2021

R_mantis said:
Thank you for your reply, i'm considering upping my budget a bit to afford one mini mill with 4th and 5th axis , do think they would the job properly from your experience?

Go onto Haas' website and price out the cheapest machine you can get with a 210mm trunnion. That's just for the machine. Then you need software, toolholders, cutters, workholding, and talented labor. Plus, if you're making bone plates for human use, you very likely need a CMM for inspection, which would be several more tens of thousands. The machine is the cheap part of the equation.

Bying a compact 5 axis cnc.

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Titanium

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Hot Rolled

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