CAPTO C5 and Small Diameter Tools

cadcamjim · Feb 26, 2021

We've got a Mori-Seiki NT1000 Mill/Turn with a 20,000 RPM Milling Spindle that uses CAPTO C5 toolholders. When we went to buy toolholders for this machine, we were somewhat disappointed with both the high cost and limited variety of holders available.

I've found that the Weldon or side-lock holders only go as small as 3/8" and the shrink-fits down to 1/4". I was wondering what others all using for toolholder setups to hold small diameter end mills; specifically 1/8" & 3/16" shanks. I am currently holding the 1/8" & 3/16" shanks in solid extensions (from AB Tools) and holding those extensions in Weldon style CAPTO C5 adapters.

Thank you,

Jim

nofxz · Feb 26, 2021

Sandvik makes ER collet chucks in Capto which will get you down to 0.032inch.

gregormarwick · Feb 26, 2021

cadcamjim said:
We've got a Mori-Seiki NT1000 Mill/Turn with a 20,000 RPM Milling Spindle that uses CAPTO C5 toolholders. When we went to buy toolholders for this machine, we were somewhat disappointed with both the high cost and limited variety of holders available.

I've found that the Weldon or side-lock holders only go as small as 3/8" and the shrink-fits down to 1/4". I was wondering what others all using for toolholder setups to hold small diameter end mills; specifically 1/8" & 3/16" shanks. I am currently holding the 1/8" & 3/16" shanks in solid extensions (from AB Tools) and holding those extensions in Weldon style CAPTO C5 adapters.

Thank you,

Jim

Variety will vary depending on who you buy from, but yes generally they go down to 6mm/1/4".

Smaller tools in sleeved hydraulic holders or collets, or small integrated ER shrink holders etc.

toolsteel · Feb 26, 2021

gregormarwick said:
Variety will vary depending on who you buy from, but yes generally they go down to 6mm/1/4".

Smaller tools in sleeved hydraulic holders or collets, or small integrated ER shrink holders etc.

+1` for the hydraulic holders with sleeves.
We get ours from Sandvik.....I am sure other places must have similar.

J Gilles · Feb 26, 2021

We use the C3 ER20 collet holders for our smaller stuff. The hydraulics work great as well, but we only use them on our bigger tools.

gkoenig · Feb 26, 2021

You bought an NT1000, high costs are part of the ballgame.

The right and true answer here is RegoFix PowerGrip. Skip right to the head of the class in rigidity, runout, and flexibility.

cadcamjim · Feb 26, 2021

gkoenig said:
You bought an NT1000, high costs are part of the ballgame.

The right and true answer here is RegoFix PowerGrip. Skip right to the head of the class in rigidity, runout, and flexibility.

I'm finding that out. I had figured someone would make 1/8", 3/16", & 1/4" Weldon toolholders. I realize they may not the best for run-out & balance at 20k rpm, but they do make them down to 3/8".

Thanks for the replies,

Jim

CNC Hacker · Feb 26, 2021

Well they certainly won't be the "budget" option, but Rego-fix makes plenty of ER and Powrgrip holders in C5 capto. I assume you have already looked at Sandivk's offerings. I would not want to run a weldon holder at 20K on any spindle taper unless it had been balanced as an assembly beforehand. Even then, there are better solutions IMHO.

boosted · Feb 26, 2021

Weldon shanks have no business holding anything that's going to rotate at 20,000RPM, which is what I suspect you are going to want with all of your small tools.

I never understood why more folks don't go with HSK 63 spindles on those smaller mill turns.

Hardplates · Feb 26, 2021

boosted said:
Weldon shanks have no business holding anything that's going to rotate at 20,000RPM, which is what I suspect you are going to want with all of your small tools.

I never understood why more folks don't go with HSK 63 spindles on those smaller mill turns.

While HSK certainly is king in the die and mold world, I was under the impression that Capto was supposed to be much more rigid than HSK, especially for holding turning tools.

gregormarwick · Feb 26, 2021

boosted said:
Weldon shanks have no business holding anything that's going to rotate at 20,000RPM, which is what I suspect you are going to want with all of your small tools.

I never understood why more folks don't go with HSK 63 spindles on those smaller mill turns.

HSK doesn't have the same orientation accuracy as capto, nor does it have the same static and torque rigidity, all of which are critical for turning tools.

HSK-T was developed as a workaround, but ultimately capto is just better when you also need to hold your tools still.

I'd make the counterstatement that I don't understand why so many people DO go with HSK for mill turns.

fmari --MariTool- · Feb 26, 2021

They should not put HSK on mill turns. HSK does not enough rotational repeatability. Doesn't matter if you are drilling, milling and tapping. But turning and using mini turrets will be a problem. This is where Capto and KM shine.

In the begining mill-turns played around with modified CAT40. Drive keys were ground more accurately. Was a disaster.

boosted · Feb 26, 2021

I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting anyone abandon the C6 and C8 spindles on the big machines - it's a good interface. I'm just not sure where C5 fits in.

HSK-T is nearly as good for rotational repeatability (from what I understand), but is obviously lacking in rigidity. However, on a tiny platform like the NTX1000, they have tons of issues with turning stability anyways. Might as well go with HSK tooling, so you can at least get the most out of that 20k milling spindle. If it's a multi channel you can do most of the serious turning with the lower turret, so to some extent you could have the best of both worlds.

Orange Vise · Feb 26, 2021

cadcamjim said:
I had figured someone would make 1/8", 3/16", & 1/4" Weldon toolholders.

Rare to see those sized tools with weldon flats, IME.

bpm9 · Feb 27, 2021

If you want to reduce setup time, better to go for quick change live tool holder with ER collets. To improve the accuracy the following holding types may be tried:
5) ER collets
4) Ultra precision collets
3) Hydro grip holders
2) Shrink fir holders
1) Centre adjustable holders.

gtscientific · Aug 31, 2023

I have an NT. I use almost all ER tool holders due to lower cost and my application. Haimer makes some nice ER shrink fit tool holders that I saw at IMTS. Allows the use of a flexible ER collet chuck with the rigidity and reach or shrink fit.

cornerRad · Aug 31, 2023

boosted said:
I think you misunderstand. I'm not suggesting anyone abandon the C6 and C8 spindles on the big machines - it's a good interface. I'm just not sure where C5 fits in.

HSK-T is nearly as good for rotational repeatability (from what I understand), but is obviously lacking in rigidity. However, on a tiny platform like the NTX1000, they have tons of issues with turning stability anyways. Might as well go with HSK tooling, so you can at least get the most out of that 20k milling spindle. If it's a multi channel you can do most of the serious turning with the lower turret, so to some extent you could have the best of both worlds.

NTX1000 is still powerful enough to need the rigidity of capto for turning.

But Mori will happily sell you a machine with whichever spindle connection you'd like. I've even seen a NTX4300 with a CAT40 spindle which I think is just ridicurous but hey customer didn't want to invest in new tooling for their 900k machine.

My advice to OP is the same as many others. You bought a fancy sports car now don't skimp on tires. Forget about Weldon holders and invest in something better matched for that spindle. Sandvik has a huge line of capto tooling (go figure) and if your rep is a nice guy he should be able to give you a pretty healthy discount on a tooling package

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