Cat40 Advice (&more) for a dumb guy

threehorn · Apr 7, 2021

Our company had a chance to buy an older Matsuura VMC at a reasonable price. We have no experience in CNC machines.

It came with no tooling. The details in the manual for the Tool Changer says
Type of tool shank MAS403-BT40
Type of retention knob MAS403-P40T2

I have a local auction coming up that has some CAT40 tool holders for sale.
My questions are:
Are these compatible and how do I determine such compatibility?
I assume the tool holders hold a collet perhaps, which grips the actual end mill etc? They also have some ER16 and ER32 collet sets. Do I need these?
Will I need anything else? Example, what is a tool setter and will I need one, etc?

Sorry for the noob questions. (I am sure I am getting some virtual eye rolls). But thanks for any assistance!

AJ H · Apr 7, 2021

CAT40 are the same taper but different flange for the tool change arm. You must use BT40 only. There are lots of different type holders for different applications. A quick google search should answer all of those questions.

M.B. Naegle · Apr 7, 2021

Different systems.

On many machines, the driving key(s) on the face of the spindle can be swapped out to change which flange system will work with it, and then you'll have to change out the tool pockets in the carousel and possibly the tool change arm to work with the desired flange system, depending on the machines design.

All that's assuming you have access to the parts to change it over. Do you have local service that can quote the parts to change out the machine? I don't know that I would bother with it as holders for both systems are readily available, but they might have parts on hand, possibly even second hand parts from a prior change.

Both BT40 and CAT40 use the same size and taper of holder, but CAT40 is dominantly imperial threads while BT40 is dominantly metric (note this when you look for pull studs), and CAT40 can only orient in the spindle one way due to different sizes of keys, while BT40 can orient both ways due to same sizes of keys. Both situations have benefits.

gkoenig · Apr 7, 2021

As AJ said, you need BT40 and not CAT40; they are similar, but different.

I wouldn't buy used tools for a well used machine. I am positive the spindle taper on that Matt isn't in great shape, and you're going to throw used tooling with weirdo used issues into it? Not a good combination... especially when Mari Tool sells very high quality BT40 holders at such reasonable prices.

If you really are literally just getting going - I would buy 10 or so ER32 holders and collets in the common sizes (1/2, 3/8, 1/4, 1/8). If you all have zero CNC experience, you've got some learning to do, and you'll be able to take plenty of baby steps with those until you all get your sea legs.

threehorn · Apr 7, 2021

gkoenig,

thank you, I was just looking at Mari Tool when I read this...

So the holders come in various sizes for collets E11, E16, E25, etc. You recommended E32 collets, correct? Is there a reason for this size choice? (ie. I assume that the larger collets allow larger size of end mills, etc.)

mhajicek · Apr 7, 2021

What tooling you need will depend on what parts you want to make. I use a lot of ER-11 and 16, but I use a lot of 1/8" to 3/8" shank tools.

adamm · Apr 7, 2021

On your question about the tool setter: You don't need a tool setter. You can use the machine itself to measure and set the tool length offsets. A tool setter just allows you to do that outside of the machine.

For ER collet size, the trade off is the size of the collet chuck vs. the size of the tool you're using. The body of an ER32 collet chuck is bigger than an ER16, so if you have to get down into a pocket to machine something, you may run out of clearance with the bigger chuck. The smaller chuck can only hold smaller tools, so you're limited on how big of a tool you can use. It all depends on what you're trying to do.

CarbideBob · Apr 7, 2021

One can get most BT-40 holders needed in 48 hours or less. Do not buy not needed for a job. You will accumulate that big rack of them over time.
Perhaps buy a pack of pullstuds if cheaper in lots. I do not change pullstuds once put in a holder.
Tool preseting on a mill is mostly about setting tool lengths so that you know where heck Z zero is or what to stuff in the offset. Get a cheap tool preseter that uses the machine and is nice on tool edges when starting out.
https://www.amazon.com/Pre-Setter-Electronic-Positioning-Machining-Adjuster/dp/B087TSZ7PD

thermite · Apr 8, 2021

adamm said:
On your question about the tool setter: You don't need a tool setter. You can use the machine itself to measure and set the tool length offsets. A tool setter just allows you to do that outside of the machine.

For ER collet size, the trade off is the size of the collet chuck vs. the size of the tool you're using. The body of an ER32 collet chuck is bigger than an ER16, so if you have to get down into a pocket to machine something, you may run out of clearance with the bigger chuck. The smaller chuck can only hold smaller tools, so you're limited on how big of a tool you can use. It all depends on what you're trying to do.

Not to forget.. the "number" in ER "relates" to diameter only in that higher number has a larger max diameter than lower number has.

But what it ALWAYS matches is collet LENGTH in mm.

Noob might not be aware, but ER collets (and not-only) NEED full-length or "through" goods in them. Lest they damage the collet when tightened for lack of support at the arse-end to clamp-down onto.

Tooling shanks will only very rarely be too short for the ER 32 and lesser.

ER 40, it can be too short now and then.

Presetting off-machine is wise. ER needs scrupulous cleaning and prefers accurate tightening.

With a torque wrench.

"Prefers" is not the same as "always gets", nor even "EVER gets"..but still..

Annnnd .... both are a nuisance to do with nowt but the spindle as your "vise".

So off-machine working is good.. whether you "also" set accurately.. or simply need a less awkward way to work up the tooling.

gregormarwick · Apr 8, 2021

M.B. Naegle said:
Both BT40 and CAT40 use the same size and taper of holder.

Not strictly true. The taper and the gauge line diameter are the same. The length from the pull stud shoulder to the gauge line is not the same.

Frequently you see people saying that they are interchangeable in the spindle, but that is only true if you also use different pull studs for each type.

Also, there is no metric CAT standard. Those are DIN 69871 / ISO 7388-1, commonly known as SK (Steil Kegel, or "steep taper" in English).

70olds · Apr 8, 2021

thermite said:
Not to forget.. the "number" in ER "relates" to diameter only in that higher number has a larger max diameter than lower number has.

But what it ALWAYS matches is collet LENGTH in mm.

The numbers refer to the largest external diameter on the taper of the collets, not the length. An ER11 collet is way over 11mm long.

SIM · Apr 8, 2021

threehorn said:
gkoenig,

thank you, I was just looking at Mari Tool when I read this...

So the holders come in various sizes for collets E11, E16, E25, etc. You recommended E32 collets, correct? Is there a reason for this size choice? (ie. I assume that the larger collets allow larger size of end mills, etc.)

ER-32 can hold small tooling with small collets as well as larger tooling.

Smaller collets like ER-16 Can hold smaller tooling only.

Starting out on a limited budget without specific needs its best to be versatile.

As jobs come up you'll soon see the larger ER-32 holders are big and tough to get into tighter spaces...coolant does not get in as well to flush chips away. You will see a "need" for a smaller collet system and then you buy what you need, what makes job run better.

Sometimes you'll want a smaller collet holder but the spindle is still going to be in the way so you'll look for a smaller holder...but longer to get down deeper without the spindle being in the way.

SO why not just buy longer holders... Oh you can, but if you buy a 3" to have...guarantee you will need a 4". Buy a 4" as long is better right...true but go longer with the holder they become less rigid, slower feeds, less depth of cut...finish can suffer.

Point, being...go versatile then buy what you need to get jobs done as you go. Soon you'll have a nice assortment of tooling you can use for YOUR jobs.

CORONA VIRUS · Apr 8, 2021

adamm said:
On your question about the tool setter: You don't need a tool setter. You can use the machine itself to measure and set the tool length offsets. A tool setter just allows you to do that outside of the machine.

For ER collet size, the trade off is the size of the collet chuck vs. the size of the tool you're using. The body of an ER32 collet chuck is bigger than an ER16, so if you have to get down into a pocket to machine something, you may run out of clearance with the bigger chuck. The smaller chuck can only hold smaller tools, so you're limited on how big of a tool you can use. It all depends on what you're trying to do.

Teaching him the wrong way to do it is ridiculous. He SHOULD be presetting all of his tools outside of the machine. And, it can be done cheaply without an expensive presetter. A collis one position vise, a granite block, and a digital height gage with SPC and a PC. Yes, you can do it in the machine, but why would you? It takes 20 times longer and cannot be done while the machine is running another job. Dumb, just dumb.
Fortunately this guy got a BT spindle. That is something generally overlooked by American machine shops due to American stupidity. BT is much better. That is why it is the European standard. It was designed to remove the flaws of the CAT holder. In addition to that, BT holders can be bought for a fraction of the price of CAT on Alibaba since it is the industry standard.

Mike1974 · Apr 8, 2021

M.B. Naegle said:
Different systems.

On many machines, the driving key(s) on the face of the spindle can be swapped out to change which flange system will work with it, and then you'll have to change out the tool pockets in the carousel and possibly the tool change arm to work with the desired flange system, depending on the machines design.

All that's assuming you have access to the parts to change it over. Do you have local service that can quote the parts to change out the machine? I don't know that I would bother with it as holders for both systems are readily available, but they might have parts on hand, possibly even second hand parts from a prior change.

Both BT40 and CAT40 use the same size and taper of holder, but CAT40 is dominantly imperial threads while BT40 is dominantly metric (note this when you look for pull studs), and CAT40 can only orient in the spindle one way due to different sizes of keys, while BT40 can orient both ways due to same sizes of keys. Both situations have benefits.

Depends on mtb design. Haas spindles only have one drive key and it can load a toolholder either way.

Tooling will be entirely dependent on what you want/need to do as said. Once you know that, there is a lot of knowledge here about what brands and style of cutters, measuring tools, etc. Someone will help you out.

AARONT · Apr 8, 2021

CORONA VIRUS said:
Teaching him the wrong way to do it is ridiculous. He SHOULD be presetting all of his tools outside of the machine. And, it can be done cheaply without an expensive presetter. A collis one position vise, a granite block, and a digital height gage with SPC and a PC. Yes, you can do it in the machine, but why would you? It takes 20 times longer and cannot be done while the machine is running another job. Dumb, just dumb.
Fortunately this guy got a BT spindle. That is something generally overlooked by American machine shops due to American stupidity. BT is much better. That is why it is the European standard. It was designed to remove the flaws of the CAT holder. In addition to that, BT holders can be bought for a fraction of the price of CAT on Alibaba since it is the industry standard.

What are you going on about? You could get a tool setter in the machine and it takes all of 30 seconds and you don't have to worry about fat fingering in a number.

CORONA VIRUS · Apr 8, 2021

AARONT said:
What are you going on about? You could get a tool setter in the machine and it takes all of 30 seconds and you don't have to worry about fat fingering in a number.

That was a dumb fucking statement. The time it takes to wheel the spindle into position and touch off is extremely time consuming, and,it cannot be done while running another job. You can have all of your tools preset and waiting for the next job. Just idiotic. Secondly, when you have a height gage with SPC out, like almost every, modern, height gage on planet Earth, you don't have to finger anything other than your ass while you FINALLY figure out that your numbers can be dumped directly into a spreadsheet, output as a program and loaded directly into a CNC control like a program. My god you people are either really old or just really stupid. This is why you will never beat China at anything. You are too stupid to adapt to anything new and more efficient.

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Cat40 Advice (&more) for a dumb guy

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