CAT40 or BT40 in Dual Contact Spindle

Rick Finsta · Sep 9, 2018

I've been offered the choice of either CAT40 or BT40 in the spindle of our new Matsuura, no charge for the conversion (it is currently BT Big Plus). We are switching over all the machines in the shop and I got a generous tooling package with the machine, so we don't have a standard and I'm not looking to use old holders in the new machine.

Just glancing around it seems to be easier to get CAT40 dual contact stuff, so that is my inclination?

guest · Sep 9, 2018

Rick Finsta said:
...Just glancing around it seems to be easier to get CAT40 dual contact stuff, so that is my inclination?

That would be my inclination for the reason you mention.

Only thing, if your guys are used to BT they will have to pay attention when loading tools to orient the dimple on the CAT holders. BT doesn't care, but CAT only go in one way...

Bobw · Sep 9, 2018

Just taking a quick look at Maritool. Your options for CAT40 seem to be
far wider than with BT40..

In the states, I'd definitely go with CAT40, and saying CAT40 is far cooler than
saying BT40..

Bobw · Sep 9, 2018

guest said:
but CAT only go in one way...

On *some* machines.. Some machines don't care..

guest · Sep 9, 2018

Bobw said:
On *some* machines.. Some machines don't care..

Just out of curiosity, are those umbrella machines?

IIRC, every CAT machine I've ran has had a side mount, and you had to orient the dimple.

If I had a combination of the types, I wouldn't tell my guys that on some machines it didn't matter...

Rick Finsta · Sep 9, 2018

My CAT40 home shop machine is an umbrella style and doesn't care about orientation, though I always orient them the same way as habit.

There are only two CAT40 machines on the floor now that are going away soon enough. This is going to be a "dedicated tools that live in their holders" shop, but I'll keep in mind that the system needs to be easy to follow to preclude mistakes.

plastikdreams · Sep 9, 2018

Bobw said:
Just taking a quick look at Maritool. Your options for CAT40 seem to be
far wider than with BT40..

In the states, I'd definitely go with CAT40, and saying CAT40 is far cooler than
saying BT40..

CAT

diesel power

Bobw · Sep 9, 2018

guest said:
Just out of curiosity, are those umbrella machines?

IIRC, every CAT machine I've ran has had a side mount, and you had to orient the dimple.

If I had a combination of the types, I wouldn't tell my guys that on some machines it didn't matter...

We had an umbrella on a Mazak that cared.. I'm not sure why the machine cared, I didn't.

Well, it cared because of the drive dogs.

It just became habit for me also, weather the machine cared or not....

If your taper gets a little beat, it can be handy to put the tools in backwards..
I do a bunch of jobs where the bearing bore on one side is a .0005" bigger than
the other side.. And if I remember to orient correctly at the start, I don't even have to
re-adjust the boring head, I just flip it around and its cuts half thou bigger..
That's really handy.

Orange Vise · Sep 9, 2018

In the states, choose CAT40 for the selection (gage lengths and diameters) and delivery.

And if you need to bum a holder off your friend to get through a job, chances are he's running CAT40.

Rick Finsta · Sep 9, 2018

Sounds good, everyone. I'll text the salesman and let him to know have them swap it out after IMTS.

Mud · Sep 9, 2018

One difference I bumped into is that CAT taper spec requires a reduced diameter right next to the flange and the BT does not require that, the tool can start out at the full flange diameter if desired. I suspect this was originally to facilitate the toolchanger design. This could only matter on something like a large extended length shell mill toolholder but since you are going dual contact maybe you have plans for long tools?

csm_ASME-B5.50-CAT40-CAT50-Technische-Zeichnung_dc3fa872dc.jpg

csm_JIS-MAS-403-BT30-BT40-BT50-Technische-Zeichnung_1f1c4bdc76.jpg

fmari --MariTool- · Sep 10, 2018

I would choose CAT40 if I had a choice. More selection in the states.

Mtndew · Sep 10, 2018

guest said:
Just out of curiosity, are those umbrella machines?

IIRC, every CAT machine I've ran has had a side mount, and you had to orient the dimple.

If I had a combination of the types, I wouldn't tell my guys that on some machines it didn't matter...

It varies.
2 of our vmc's were bought 1 year apart (about 12 yrs ago). The Okuma needs positioning, the Hyundai-Kia doesn't care. Both are magazine style toolchangers.

Rick Finsta · Sep 10, 2018

Mud said:
One difference I bumped into is that CAT taper spec requires a reduced diameter right next to the flange and the BT does not require that, the tool can start out at the full flange diameter if desired. I suspect this was originally to facilitate the toolchanger design. This could only matter on something like a large extended length shell mill toolholder but since you are going dual contact maybe you have plans for long tools?

It is an MX-520 PC4 so I imagine we'll need long tools on many jobs once other work is brought in; it comes dual contact no matter what, though. The first part going on it is just 3+2 and we've already got it proven out in our Brothers; we'll just post to CAMplete, run the simulation, and then start making chips.

dstryr · Sep 10, 2018

There are going to be lots of nice longer holders in BT40 but you will most likely be required to run metric tooling.

gkoenig · Sep 10, 2018

dstryr said:
There are going to be lots of nice longer holders in BT40 but you will most likely be required to run metric tooling.

Why would BT vs CAT have an impact on holder length?

More BT40 in Europe, where there is more 5 axis, so more longer holders built for it? Or is there a technical reason?

dstryr · Sep 10, 2018

gkoenig said:
Why would BT vs CAT have an impact on holder length?

More BT40 in Europe, where there is more 5 axis, so more longer holders built for it? Or is there a technical reason?

Yeah locational issue. Germany / Japan build most of the best 5x style holders with rigidity and slim profile that aren’t shrink fit

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rick Finsta · Sep 10, 2018

So does the fact that it is a 5-axis mean that I should reconsider, then? It isn't like they are going to swap the spindles on the floor at IMTS so I've got a few days to go back on my decision.

Rob F. · Sep 10, 2018

It seems Europe is always ahead of USA in whatever it is. So if they use many more 5 axis machines and they are almost exclusively using BT40 maybe they are on to something. It seems the only reason being given for CAT40 is tool availability, if you can plan ahead and know what you need in advance maybe the BT40 is the wave of the future. If you can not schedule or plan beyond lunch time then get CAT40 because when you drop the ball all the other shops around will be happy to let you borrow what you need. Or you can buy it maybe a bit faster. Get CAT40 and others may want to borrow yours also.... :stirthepot:

CAT40 or BT40 in Dual Contact Spindle

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