Centroid control for lathe retrofit

Hi All:
I'm thinking of retrofitting a Centroid control to a Monarch 10EE engine lathe for prototyping and short runs of Delrin parts.
I've been looking at the Centroid website and they promise a virtually turn key, user friendly package for around 9 grand.
Of course I'd need to cannibalize the Monarch and fit ballscrews a spindle encoder, axis motors etc.
I figure 3 full working days of lost time plus the bits and pieces and the control, so I'm expecting to drop about 15 grand into the project all inclusive.
I've been looking at gang chuckers and turret machines in the Haas SL10 range but I'm quite restricted for space, I do relatively little production turning, and I like the versatility of being able to throw up a 4 jaw to turn a mold core and then switch to a collet chuck or a 6 jaw in a pinch for low volumes of prototypes.
I also like the notion of re-using all my existing tooling.
The Monarch is already taking up floor space, so I'm eyeing it with mixed feelings and contemplating attacking it with wrenches and hammers.
By the way, I have looked at the Haas toolroom lathe...too bad it's so poorly engineered (unguarded linear ways and ballscrews, short carriage, z axis thrust way offcenter etc, etc, etc.) The concept otherwise is not a bad fit, although the machine is a bit bulky for my small shop

Any comments from anyone?
Any Centroid users out there?
Is this a totally stupid idea??
All comments will be welcome.
Cheers

Marcus

and they promise a virtually turn key, user friendly package for around 9 grand.

Click to expand...

BEWARE:
DO NOT GO THERE

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/13/1255.html#000000

dk

From a lot of personal experience: The Centroid is a great choice, its the only control I ever saw that is really as easy to learn as they promise. For the mill control, a day of training is all you need, for the lathe about a day plus a couple of hours. You can program it by following their simple Conversational method or use the Fanuc G-Codes programming and even the Fanuc Canned Cycles.
To see some program examples that you could use, look on the website: http://home.columbus.rr.com/hputz
Heinz.

Hi all:
Thank you for pointing me to that thread ...that's a real eye opener!!!
I'm going to look at other alternatives like Mach 2 and Geckos.
I'm sure glad this group is around...helps keep the sharks a bit more honest.
Heinz, it sounds like you've had a pretty good experience with this retrofit (unless you got it as OEM equipment??)
The point of spending the money for me, though, is to avoid hassles...I really don't want to take a chance if I'm going to pony up 9 grand.
I can buy hassles for a lot less money by going with Mach 2 and building up the system from scratch.
I'd hoped to get matched components all tuned up and ready to go...that's what the Centroid site implies.
Oh well, it sounded too good to be true anyway.

Cheers

Marcus

For the money I think you could find a better choice than the 10ee. Try asking on the Monarch forum for advice. I can tell you from experiance that you will like the Centroid control but dont go through Ajax. Spend the real money and have the retrofit done by one of the qualified techs or send them the machine itself. There are always going to be small problems that will have to be worked out and you may not be the best person to figure them out. Check with Centroid first and see if they have prior experiance with your machine type.

I have no doubt that almost anyone of us could install the retrofit for a bridgport. So many of them have been done that they have worked out most of the bugs. But to do something for the first time could end up being a lifelong project before you get the results you are looking for. Dont be afraid to try but please make sure you think you can handle it before you spend your money and for goodness sake dont go with the lowest bidder!

Charles

Hi Charles:
You make some good points, and I appreciate what you're saying.
Here's my situation:
I'm in a pretty small shop, so I don't have a lot of space to put in another spindle, although that would be my first choice if I could find something around the same size overall as the 10EE.
What I've seen in that size range is mostly gang machines and Swiss machines...the Swiss machines are not right for my mix of work, and the gang machines I've found are pretty limited too.(especially regarding swing)
Something like a Harrison Alpha would be worth considering but they're way overpriced new and hard to come by used.
I've got no appetite at all for buying a 20 year old beater off Ebay and then spending the rest of my life trying to get it to work.
With the Monarch I'd have to do the mechanical work first...ballscrews, motor mounts, MPG mounts, new cross slide etc etc etc.
I want to do that myself...I'm a toolbreaker by trade, and I've seen some of the crap that passes for machinery rebuilding in my area.
No way I'm going to let those clowns near my Monarch!!!
The electronics and motion control is where I'm weak.
I understand how it works, but I just ain't no "Sparky" and I don't have either the time or the inclination to learn.
Fortunately I have buddies, a couple of whom are very good with motion control and do it for a living.
If I can't find a suitable machine then the next best choice for me is to make a conversion, either of my Monarch, or another machine.
The nice thing about the Monarch is that it's bulletproof and its condition is known...I just rebuilt it from scratch and had the ways reground, Turcite on the carriage etc etc etc.
It's also already in my shop, has the capacity I need , and is fully tooled.
But I need a commercial quality system; it's got to be better than hobby class to be useful to me, so I've been hesitant to go the typical stepper driven homebrew route.
I'm told that microstepping drives are infinitely better than they were, and stepper motors have come a long way too, but to my mind, there's got to be good reasons why every commercial system is brushless DC or AC servo these days.
I had hoped that the Centroid package could get me there without too much pain, but the experiences of dkmc have me worried about dropping money into a sinkhole and having to fight hard for even basic service.
A crashy, bug ridden control that's only grudgingly supported is not an encouraging thought either, and there seems to be at least some contentions that this is the case with this control.
Anyway, I've been given a lot to absorb...I appreciate the input from all.
I'll let you all know my decision once I figure it out myself!!
Cheers

Marcus

I think the software works well. user friendly easy to operate.

Marcus:
Think your estimates are very optimistic. Don't believe that converting a EE to CNC would only take 3 days of real work...think full 3 weeks is a more raslistic estimate if at that. If it were a BP thatn maybe, but not a machine that has rarely been retro fitted. I would venture to say that the real cost would easily be 20+K (down time de-bugging time etc)
Although it is bigger than your requirements i would look at the Romi. I bought an M17 a year ago, and it has been very nice! I got the optional D-6 spindle so changeing tooling is a snap. Unlike the Haas it has full guarding and a real bed. The machine is easy to run as a manual and i dare say you would not miss the EE for small one off jobs.(yea i know, i have a EE at home and it is very nice). The nice thing about the Romi over the Harrison is that the Rome gives you all the programming and control options as part of the price. Plus i think the workmanship is better.(they do their own castings in house, not Chinese)..They use main line German electrics and Fanuc 21i-T controls that has a conversational and full G-code capibility.
The usual disclaimer..not affiliated blaw blaw blaw..
Cheers Ross

Hi Ross:
I've been casually looking at the Romi, but I always had some misgivings about it.
I thought that the Romi was built by Bridgeport, and I'd heard that Bridgeport's quality control went in the toilet just before they went under. The bottom line of this rumour is that one should never, never, ever, buy a late model Bridgeport machine for fear of getting an unfixable clunker!!
Is this just rumour and innuendo, or is there actually something to this?
Sounds like you had a good experience with yours...that's certainly reassuring.
I've seen them go in the 18 to 25 K range...is this about right for a decent condition machine?
The other thing of course, is the monstrous size of the thing.
I need nothing bigger than the 10EE for everything that I do...a BIG part for me is a 4" diameter part 6" long, and most are under 1" dia and maybe 2" long, with plenty of parts under 1/8" diameter and maybe 1/2" long.
For a manual lathe the 10EE is just about perfect for me...wouldn't it be nice to have the same capacity and footprint in a CNC version!!!
On the issue of my wild optimism about how long it's going to take...yeah, you're right, I was thinking wishfully.
Too bad there is no really good, small machine around; at least not one that I've heard of.
Thanks for your input Ross.
Cheers

Marcus

Marcus - if I'm not mistaken, the Bridgeport machine was built by Romi, not the other way around.

You might also look at Milltronics machines, they have nice combo lathes like the Romi. The ML1440 has a D1-5 spindle. It's bigger than a 10EE and it's not as finely built as a 10EE, but then what is? We have a ML20 and it holds close tolerances while being pressed to it's limits in production.

Ajax/Centroid - Beware! Beware!

I have a Hardinge that is 3/4 done and there it sits. Ajax supplied bad and no programming and leaves it sit there.

Of course I can hire one of their techs at $85.00 an hour plus travel time,expences and lodging. So what happened to the DIY project?

They will tell you after the check clears that your not qualified to handle the work. After repairing 3 AB controls down to replacing chips at board level since 1980, who are they kidding.

Again beware of these sharks. There are better solutions out there if you look.

Nick

Ajax/Centroid - Beware! Beware!

I have a Hardinge that is 3/4 done and there it sits. Ajax supplied bad and no programming and leaves it sit there.

Click to expand...

Yet another victim...
I hear the sales jargon that they have 30 hardinge lathes in the field all running perfect, yet it seems no one has a lathe with a DIY aj/centroid control that works at all. What gives? I think the DIY part is just a hook....complaints of software problems seem the norm.

dk

I have a Hardinge HXL with a Centroid control and an 8 station turret. The control sometimes decides to lose its parameters. No help can be had from Cenrtoid... they claim it is a hardware issue. Too long a story for this 2 fingered typer. The manual in next to useless in terms of figuring out anything with the control. Tool offsets are not straight forward, etc, etc... Stay away!

Dan

WOW!!!
Lots of very interesting comments; most of them severely negative.
Centroid just lost my business!!
So, what other aftermarket controls can you guys recommend.
I've heard one vote for Milltronics...any others?
Cheers

Marcus

MACH III

http://www.machsupport.com/artsoft/index/index.htm

Not that there are any plans or intentions, but if anything can kill ajax/centroid MACH III has the firepower,features,support and low cost to vaporize them.

The Milltronics control is good, but they don't sell them for retrofit. There is one man who does retrofits with Milltronics controls, you can get his number from Milltronics tech support.

One neat feature of the Milltronics on a lathe is how you can step through a new program with the pulse wheel like a Proto Trak does.

Did you see the comments in the other thread about how poorly Mach2 contours with backlash compensation active? How about Mach3, is it better?

Click to expand...

I have not seen the thread you mention so I may be talking out of context.
I have Mach on my mill and it is stepper driven, backlash compensation does not work well for me. This however I believe is because of the steppers, and as far as I know the backlash works perfectly when servos are used. I have also heard from a few that backlash comp works with some stepper systems.
Hood

Why do you need backlash comp if the ballscrews are in good condition?

It's not a controller fault if the machine isn't up to spec.

John S.

John,
Isn't it true that Mach reverts to an exact stop mode if backlash comp is invoked? Seems like Art said that's what it does.

As far as I know, the use of steppers or servos shouldn't make any difference in the application of comp. I've got an old knee mill whose control operates only in exact stop mode. The screws are tight but every pause marks the part. It doesn't really matter whether the controller is Mach or Fanuc's latest offering. If you run in exact stop mode, or choke the control with short moves to the point where it pauses, the part will show every one of those pauses.

I've run a mill in the past with an industrial control and servos where comp was required on the Y axis due to the screw needing repair/replacement, and the net result of having those comp moves is the same even though that machine would insert the comp moves without pausing. When the cutter abruptly changes position due to comp, the result isn't as visible when done on the fly as it is when accompanied by a pause, but its right there and just as measurable in the final result.

GE had a control parameter that could be invoked to make a mill approach the final location of every rapid move from the same direction regardless of which direction the table was traveling. The manual explained that this feature allowed one to use backlash comp and still maintain precise drilled, reamed, or bored hole locations, but, past that, backlash comp could not ever be expected to compensate for worn screws and give good results on contour milling.

One neat feature of the Milltronics on a lathe is how you can step through a new program with the pulse wheel like a Proto Trak does.

Click to expand...

I have heard that MACH 3 has that capability also.
I am very interested to get it functioning on my Tree (mill) retrofit, as a friend of mine has recently bought a trak mill and is quite pleased with the feature. My retrofit will probably come in around $2500. His machine cost around $42,000....


Most older controls were not very good at backlash comp. Personally, I'd rather have good ballscrews .

dk