Chiron fz08s with fanuc 21i-m good machine?

So while deciding to go for a small vmc from china, a dealer I've had a mill off before sent through details of a machine i'd admit i've never heard of before.

Its an fz08s with fanuc 21i-m.

Its the only thing hes had/had/thinks he can get, that fits in with my footprint requirements.

as it stands, it all works fine, its had a few service bits done by the dealer.

what are the trouble parts on these?(its had new card batteries/some air lines/2 replacement tool fingers).

Currently i'm waiting on Chiron to confirm a few things.

Is the fanuc 21i-m fairly robust? I know siemens 810, never touched fanuc, I was wary of something this 'old' however its a really clean machine.

YouTube

Or its it going to be like having a 20 year old lamborghini..........

If it uses the multi-arm toolchanger, I'd run. High maintenance if you actually make chips. Also used proprietary tool holders.

21i is a good control from a reliability standpoint. It was one of the "budget" controls of the era though so not the best for high speed contouring and such. Most uses will be fine. As with all Fanuc controls, the machine builder specifies what they want for options and initial machine buyer could option for additional features. Things like memory size, offset numbers and configuration, helical interpolation, macro programming, etc. are things you would want to verify and make sure fits your needs. Otherwise, you should budget to add them if you decide to go with the machine.

Yep, multi-arm tool changer so RUN!!! Neat machines to watch run/ change tools.

What’s wrong with the multi arm changer?

Complexity and proprietary tool holders, they have a carrier bearing attached to them. Do you want to get more tool holders than the machine comes with??? You better make sure this is possible before doing anything else.

DavidScott said:

Complexity and proprietary tool holders, they have a carrier bearing attached to them. Do you want to get more tool holders than the machine comes with??? You better make sure this is possible before doing anything else.

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It’s got a 15 with it, that would suit me. I have found some holders if needed, expensive though! However 15 should be more than enough.

Nothing, Just everyone has heard allot of horror stories about them. I have an FZ08W. The tool changer can be finicky. They don't like to sit. Like clean air and to be kept lubed. I don't know about proprietary tool holders? This one takes HSK32. Fast and accurate machine. Also there is a guy that will rebuild the tool changer cylinders for a very reasonable price if you ever need it done. I believe he quoted me $3,500 for all 12.

frankychops said:

What’s wrong with the multi arm changer?

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frankychops said:

What’s wrong with the multi arm changer?

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Well, you asked........

The one I did field service on needed about 20-30 minutes per shift cleanup to keep running reliably. Twice per shift (lunch time and end of shift) The operator shut down to use an air hose to blow chips out the the arm assemblies. Sometimes it required calling tools from the magazine into the spindle so chips caught in the pivot points of the arm could be cleared. It was in a production facility so did make a pretty good volume of chips. Chips build up on the arm assembly of the tool in the spindle. Then when that tool is put away, not all the chips fall off and many are brought up unto the "magazine" area. Sometimes that prevented the tool from reaching the "stored" position. Other times, chip accumulation sometimes caused arms to bind up when they were actuated. The design of the arms is a bit flimsy. Some cast alloy pieces and some sheetmetal pieces. When arms got jammed they often got bent. Sometimes could be straightened. Sometimes replaced.

Those problems would be greatly minimized in low volume or hobby use.

Complexity is the issue that the user of a 20 year old multi arm design will deal with. Each arm has it's own air cylinder, solenoid valve, and 2 sensors. The magazine had 2 air cylinders, a solenoid valve, and 2 sensors. For that particular machine, that meant 14 solenoid valves on the back of the head, and 30 air hoses, and 14 cables going from the back of the head to the magazine and tool unclamp/clamp device.

Air leaks, sticky or failed solenoid valves, broken sensor wires, bad sensors are all things I'm sure you would face and have to learn to deal with.

There is no carrier bearing with them. At least not on an FZ08W. And again proprietary tool holders? Mine takes HSK32?



Complexity and proprietary tool holders, they have a carrier bearing attached to them. Do you want to get more tool holders than the machine comes with??? You better make sure this is possible before doing anything else.

So the machine makes fast tool changes.
Is this important to cycle time?
Many tools and short use make such a machine shine.
5 to 10 minutes on a tool and who cares about that toolchanger and if it takes even 30 seconds.
Ten to twelve tools used inside 5-6 minutes making toolholders so I love my Chrion and deal with the holder cost and bearings.
Bob

VTM said:

There is no carrier bearing with them. At least not on an FZ08W. And again proprietary tool holders? Mine takes HSK32?



Complexity and proprietary tool holders, they have a carrier bearing attached to them. Do you want to get more tool holders than the machine comes with??? You better make sure this is possible before doing anything else.

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Balanced tool holders are circa $95 for the hsk-32. Its a fairly basic(3 axis machine and works great at the minute) it would only have light use. Just it’s inherent accuracy and spindle speed would be nice. Maybe 8 hours per week.

Chiron tool changers always looked amazing through videos and on paper. But every Chiron I have ever seen at a machine shop was collecting dust, cause of some mechanical problem with the tool changer. I would rather find a used brother machine. Tool changer just as fast, more tools, less complicated, and ultra reliable.

I use mine less than that. I leave it setup for a particular job that runs a few times yearly. But when I run it I run It hard for a few weeks. What your looking at is used so I'm obviously not saying you can't or won't have a problem. Keep your air dry. Disconnect It when your not using the machine. Keep some lube in the air input. Even If Its just WD-40. That's what I use. You should still be able to get parts from Chiron. There service is a little crappy for these older machine's however. I used to speak with a great Tech through Chiron America who would always go the extra mile for me when I needed something. Since he retired I've had better luck getting help from the parts guys than from the Tech guys. But that can depend on who you get on the phone and thankfully I haven't needed much help. With that said. Having owned a very similar machine. If I was In the market and the price was right. The tool changer wouldn't scare me away.

VTM said:

I use mine less than that. I leave it setup for a particular job that runs a few times yearly. But when I run it I run It hard for a few weeks. What your looking at is used so I'm obviously not saying you can't or won't have a problem. Keep your air dry. Disconnect It when your not using the machine. Keep some lube in the air input. Even If Its just WD-40. That's what I use. You should still be able to get parts from Chiron. There service is a little crappy for these older machine's however. I used to speak with a great Tech through Chiron America who would always go the extra mile for me when I needed something. Since he retired I've had better luck getting help from the parts guys than from the Tech guys. But that can depend on who you get on the phone and thankfully I haven't needed much help. With that said. Having owned a very similar machine. If I was In the market and the price was right. The tool changer wouldn't scare me away.

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Thanks. Good to hear from an owner. Machine looks really clean, works now which is the best you can hope for I guess.

Unahorn said:

Chiron tool changers always looked amazing through videos and on paper. But every Chiron I have ever seen at a machine shop was collecting dust, cause of some mechanical problem with the tool changer. I would rather find a used brother machine. Tool changer just as fast, more tools, less complicated, and ultra reliable.

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I’m after a compact used machine, this is circa $16000 usd. Nothing similar in the uk, that’s why I was looking at one of the decent new Chinese vmc’s. Brother machines are even less common here, there’s a few emco’s but not many

What year is it?

November 2001. A dealer in Germany has an 08 Siemens but I’ve no details of that machine yet.

Chiron are ones that use custom linear guides, so if possible, do a visual inspection, look for any signs of wear there, corrosion, do some test cuts to get idea of condition if possible, replacements are pricey

jz79 said:

Chiron are ones that use custom linear guides, so if possible, do a visual inspection, look for any signs of wear there, corrosion, do some test cuts to get idea of condition if possible, replacements are pricey

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This is probably a good point. These are grease machines so It takes more than just filling up the old auto luber to keep them lubed. More likely to be neglected IMO.

I've had some pics, all looks good.