Choosing between Haas VF2 vs Brother S700X2
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    Default Choosing between Haas VF2 vs Brother S700X2

    Hello friends,

    I've been comparing two machines for a long time. And it's time to choose, Now in my offers. there is a price difference of 14,000 euros between the prices. (Brother is more expensive by 14.000 euro ).

    In return, Haas has wifi, chip auger and Pcool. In addition, high-speed processing comes. I added Probe option for two machines. Beside probe Brother S700x2 don't have any option coming.

    Which one would you choose? I ask by knowing that brothers users are also active in the forum, but the difference also requires consideration.

    My parts %80 percent aluminum but sure I will need to use mild steel. Both are standart spindles (10k Rpm)

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    For $14k difference, I would probably buy the Brother (and I have a shop full of Haas machines). That is assuming that you can get equal levels of service from both companies. Where I am at, I can get service from Haas in a couple of hours, Brother was better part of a week out. That and shear laziness keeps me buying Haas machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNC View Post
    Hello friends,

    I've been comparing two machines for a long time. And it's time to choose, Now in my offers. there is a price difference of 14,000 euros between the prices. (Brother is more expensive by 14.000 euro ).

    In return, Haas has wifi, chip auger and Pcool. In addition, high-speed processing comes. I added Probe option for two machines. Beside probe Brother S700x2 don't have any option coming.

    Which one would you choose? I ask by knowing that brothers users are also active in the forum, but the difference also requires consideration.

    My parts %80 percent aluminum but sure I will need to use mild steel. Both are standart spindles (10k Rpm)
    No brainer, I'd get the Brother but with a 16k dual contact spindle.

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    How much z does both machines have
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Do you want to run 40-taper or 30-taper? There is a huge difference. I have anS700 and rarely run anything larger than 1/2", while with 40-taper I expect you can run 3/4" and maybe even 1". A 3" deep pocket is a struggle with my 30-taper, just as an example.

    But, I can run most aluminum parts quite faster than 40-taper machines.

    Sol do you want fast with limited work envelope, or larger work envelope and slower?

    Regards.

    Mike

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    I think the answer here depends entirely on the parts you're making.

    Aluminum... but what size?

    Prototype? Low volume production? High volume production? Hobby?

    Haas:
    - Commodity machine at a very good price.
    - Mostly reliable, but not very durable.
    - The 40 taper means it can take some jobs that would not run great in a Speedio (bigger tooling, larger parts).
    - The easiest machine to use on the market.
    - Medium on reliability; I would say local support is critical. Expect to spend some money keeping it running 5+ years.

    Speedio:
    - Very premium constructed production focused machine.
    - Highest reliability and durability in the machine tool world.
    - 30 Taper, so will be 20% faster than the Haas (in general), but won't like doing big parts that need big/long tools.
    - Easier than a Fanuc, but definitely intended for machining nerds focused on shaving seconds off of cycle times.
    - Reliable enough that support is not as critical. These things basically never have warranty issues (users fuck them up though).

    This is why it is important to know how much production you'll be doing. If you are looking for a mill to fuck around and make parts in quantities of ~10 - prototyping, product development, etc - the cycle time advantages of the Speedio mean very little and I would probably save a lot of money with the Haas, plus get a little more overall flexibility in part size with the 40 taper.

    The more production is in the mix however, the better and better the Speedio begins to look. I split my time about 25% production, 75% prototyping/development work with my Speedio. If I had a Haas, that split would be more like 50/50, and the amount of time I would be standing in front of it being a Cycle Start Production Monkey would increase dramatically. Development time is *way* more valuable than production time, so having a machine that cuts production cycles so dramatically is a godsend.

    Also, the Speedio is just a crazy satisfying machine to drive. This is a very serious tool made by very smart people to do really difficult machining tasks in rough places. They have a lot to give and they reward being a nerd.

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    I had this same decision to make and went with the Speedio and I am very happy with it - pretty much completely happy. The only thing I would change is I'd get the dual contact spindle, just because when you get beyond 2" of cut depth, you're brushing up against the limits of 30 taper unless you slow down and take lighter cuts.

    The Speedio is really a pleasure to use. I don't care about PCool and I think the Brother high speed machining is *light* years ahead of the Haas.

    The nicest thing about the Speedio, for me, is it's just a pleasure to use. With tool and spindle probes, ethernet, huge memory/storage capacity, super-easy to load tools and super fast performance, it's a pleasure to program a part and run it. Running the 40 taper I had before it was much more of a chore. For me, that advantage pays big dividends.

    As for the price difference, see if you can squeeze the price on the Brother a bit more, but even if not... you are getting something extra for the added cost. If you are running this machine as a money maker, the extra cost of the Brother can be easily justified. If you are not running it to make money each month and it's about future potential and prototyping, then I think the added quality and reliability of the Brother can be justified there too - but it depends on what your finances look like.

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    If your mostly looking at doing alum your looking at the wrong Haas model ,, the VF2 is a ok machine but its slower than a VF2SS by a long shot ,, I do TONS of alum every month and well the brothers is a nice machine its still mostly a light weight drill/ tap center with milling capability in my opinion. for small parts and small cutters it might be a good choice but I like the 40 taper machines a lot more and find them to be "WAY" more universal in what you can make on them and how you can go about your jobs ,, as for reliability of the Haas machines I have had great luck with them and have ran them hard ,,, I have looked at the brothers machines in that some of the small parts I build I do think the brothers might be a better fit for than Haas ,, but every time I look at them it comes down to there being "NO" good way to deal with the chips with them ,, yes one can add a 18K chip system to them but its not not half as good as the $2,800 Haas augers at dealing with alum chips ,,, as a production shop I can produce a trash can a hour from a machine and dealing with the chips is a big deal ...
    You might look at the Haas DM2 mills ,, I just got one a few months ago and its FAST and still a 40 taper so I can run about any tool path or tooling I want and not have to stop and deal with the limitations of a 30 taper machine ,,,,

    Bottom line is there is no "ONE" best machine out out there ,,, Haas vf2ss is a vary universal mill and fast ,, but not as fast as a Brothers. Well the new DM2 is faster than a vf2ss its not as fast as a brothers but I take a lot of cuts on it that would pull a tool right out of a 30 taper machine..

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    Very interesting and explanatory answers thank you. Today I will want them to update offer with dual contact bbt spindle.


    From my side Brother model has these drawbacks (in my offer)

    14 Tool ATC unfortunately 24 can become more expensive. (Haas offer had 30 tool ATC)
    Don't coming with BII high accuracy mode. Sure these are can be added as extra but price difference will be much higher. (Haas adds this option here as gift)
    Z difference of 180-480mm (Brother) vs 102-610mm (Haas)
    Lack of how to videos This will be our 1st machine so we will need to learn lots of information. Haas is more reachable from internet I guess.

    At the end it all comes to justifiying price difference as you wrote friends. We will think deeper, thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by TUNC View Post
    This will be our 1st machine
    You didn't say that in your first post, if that's the case, then I would get the Haas.

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    Would the Haas DT/DM series be slightly more "comparable" to a Speedio? If I was going to buy a small Haas it would no doubt be a DM. Fairly peppy and 40 taper

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    I got a DM2 about 3 months ago and yes it is "FAST" and well it does not have the power of the VF2SS ,, it well take a hell of a cut and it well do small parts faster ,,, "BUT" Well I like the mill I well go back to buying VF2SS mills in the future ,, more tools, more power, way better to work with do to the wider door, the list goes on ,,

    my take on the Speedio is that its in a class with robodrills and not with Haas .. brothers have there place with small parts and small tooling and hi production ,,, but I really don`t see them being a good fit for bigger parts or larger cutters,

    I fell both machines have there place and do to a lot of the parts I build needing deep pockets or a lot of hogging I have made the choice to go with Haas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    You didn't say that in your first post, if that's the case, then I would get the Haas.
    My first real machine was my S500X1. I have zero regrets. I try not to run big tools on it. 2" LOC and over and I get a little nervous, however, more experienced guys can probably do far better than me. I do feel that the step up to 40 taper is not small, but considerable. If your parts are a good fit, the thing just flies. I disagree that Brothers only belong in production environments and I see no issue with it being your first machine. If you're new to it, you will break something, so support in your area is important. I surface a 3/4" long jelly bean shaped part at 100+ IPM with 2 block look ahead and have no issues. My 2 cents.

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    I wanted to go with a Brother M140x2 for a small fast aluminum and plastic 5 axis machine, but need more than 22 tools for some of the parts. I went VF2ss and TR160. Haas DM is only 18 I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    I surface a 3/4" long jelly bean shaped part at 100+ IPM with 2 block look ahead and have no issues. My 2 cents.
    Mode BI is actually 40 blocks of look ahead, but the control is monstrously fast. The reason BII offers 200 blocks of look ahed is not so the control has a buffer to keep up, but to more accurately interpolate dense direction changes in code.

    I've sent complex 3D geometry to my BII equipped machine with 0.00005" code tolerance feeding at 300IPM... and it just swallows it whole and never stutters.

    When I work with folks on Brother stuff, and they say "Mode B isn't keeping up!" what is always happening is either Mode B is slowing down to keep tolerance on tight curves within the path, or their linking moves (which are often very tight corners) is being interpreted by the control as cut path which it needs to slow way down for. Despite my best efforts, I've never actually gotten a BI or BII equipped Speedio to code starve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    My first real machine was my S500X1. I have zero regrets. I try not to run big tools on it. 2" LOC and over and I get a little nervous, however, more experienced guys can probably do far better than me. I do feel that the step up to 40 taper is not small, but considerable. If your parts are a good fit, the thing just flies. I disagree that Brothers only belong in production environments and I see no issue with it being your first machine. If you're new to it, you will break something, so support in your area is important. I surface a 3/4" long jelly bean shaped part at 100+ IPM with 2 block look ahead and have no issues. My 2 cents.

    My first machine too. Great job shop machine IMO. So easy to set up and run especially now that I have a tool setter.

    .75x3.25 loc end mill. I take light cuts, but works as needed.
    YouTube

    Even do a few "lathe parts" now and again.
    20200207_101137.jpg
    And some of my own products to boot.
    sp_lever_combined.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20191123_112640.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Mode BI is actually 40 blocks of look ahead, but the control is monstrously fast. The reason BII offers 200 blocks ..
    Ok. I forgot whatever the default was. I just see the cursor thing a couple lines ahead when it's running so I thought it was 2. My point is I'm just running factory defaults, didn't pay for extra accuracy, and it does everything I throw at it very well. Even if you only run it 2 hours a day, it would be 2.5 hours on another machine. It adds up.

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    I've owned Haas and now own Brother. My experience is that the Brother will make you more money. My local support for the Brother is better than Haas. (support is super important)I had problems with both of the new Haas machines I bought, but it's been a while. Hopefully the quality is better now.
    The Brother is a few clicks above the RoboDrill too. Someone on this forum had run both, and said the Brother was faster.
    For a first machine, sometimes it's better to get a used machine, as there will be mistakes.
    The single biggest thing I'd suggest you look at is the quality of support for the machines you are looking into - this can be really frustrating. If you are needing to get parts done, and can't get the machine working due to a lack of support, that can ruin your day/week/month.
    Good luck!

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglemike View Post
    The Brother is a few clicks above the RoboDrill too. Someone on this forum had run both, and said the Brother was faster.
    The Brother is definitely faster on most production machining - so facing, drilling, tapping, contours, and HSM roughing paths. Back to back X1 Speedios vs new B5 Robodrills in production settings with prismatic parts? The Brother is about 10% faster. X2 machines probably eek out another couple of percent.

    Fanuc has a long history of supplying companies like Mitsu Seiki, Yasda, RokuRoku, and Makino with very high-end surfacing machines, and the Robodrill gets all that tech. So if I was making impellers, or organic medical parts, or molds, the Robodrill would likely be the better choice, with faster cycle times. Nano AI Smoothing + AI Contour Control II + Fanuc's own servo drives makes for very excellent machine motion control, probably only matched by Heidenhain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    The Brother is definitely faster on most production machining - so facing, drilling, tapping, contours, and HSM roughing paths. Back to back X1 Speedios vs new B5 Robodrills in production settings with prismatic parts? The Brother is about 10% faster. X2 machines probably eek out another couple of percent.

    Fanuc has a long history of supplying companies like Mitsu Seiki, Yasda, RokuRoku, and Makino with very high-end surfacing machines, and the Robodrill gets all that tech. So if I was making impellers, or organic medical parts, or molds, the Robodrill would likely be the better choice, with faster cycle times. Nano AI Smoothing + AI Contour Control II + Fanuc's own servo drives makes for very excellent machine motion control, probably only matched by Heidenhain.
    Thanks very much for your input. I value your ability to be objective.
    Another thing - most guys looking to buy a new/first machine will not be doing impellers. If they are looking to do impellers, I hope they wouldn't be posting to ask questions like this. The machine tool tech is waaay cheaper and more capable now than in the 80's and early 90's. I worked at a place that did some large impellers, and it was brutal to try and get them done with the tech we had (cash flow and owner decisions also affected the available tech). MacAuto was $25K per month, per seat, IIRC.
    OP, the Speedio is cheaper to run than a Haas VF2 (or SS variant). Mine are on 30 amp circuits, even the hi-torque versions. No issues.


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