CNC Buy first or go to school?

Hello Guys,
I must first say that i have ZERO experience with cnc and CAM. i only understand its principle and have experience using manual machines...

I deseperaly want to learn to proeficiently use a cnc lathe and mill. im not sure if i should take a course at NTMA to learn cnc before i buy a machine (course its 14000 and 4 hs a day for 7 months ) or buy the machine first and learn the hardway...
I like the second option, but i dont know how hard would be to learn all the apects necesary to effectivly use the machine, and i dont want to buy a 9k machine and not be able to use because of my lack of knowdlege..

Many of you would probably know best if is worth the time and money to convert a bench mill to cnc (grizzly g619) or to wait until i can afford the tormach PCNC 1100 (aprox 9k )
and then learn to use or go to school and get trained before buying anyting.
thanks in advance

buying a machine is simple. knowing what you need with it is the tough stuff. wouldn't hurt to do both.... learn and play at home at the same time. might help you in your schooling...

I think you need to decide what you want out of the machining . Are you just going to be a hobby guy , with the machines you have mentioned I would guess this. Or do you think those are Machines you can make a living with ?

Are you starting a machine shop or just a hobby?

Basic Base line knowledge is good to have and will help you start machining good parts faster and If you are going to start a shop I would suggest the Training first.

If you are just going to use the machines as a hobby then just start making chips and ask questions to this forum just don't mention about the hobby grade equipment.

I would wait until you can at least afford a Haas or something used in that grade of equipment. The Tormach would be ok for a hobby grade machine.

I agree with both Shane and Upnorth, I took a cnc / cadcam a while before touching an nc machine. If you can I would get the machine bearing in mind Upnorth's comments prior to or at the beginning of class. You will learn so much faster and more better is you can come home do the days lesson on the machine.
That being said I learned so much more by just gitt'in the print and having at it. I also had read several books prior to classes as well. A lot depends on you too, I learn best book in hand while on machine. Also as previously stated knowing what you wish do will guide you especially when in class.

By the way the guys on this forum know their s*&t, way more than I would ever hope to.

Best of luck

Maybe a good place to start is to answer some questions-

1) How much room do you have?

2) You have parts/products you need to make with machines?

3) This is strictly hobby or is this for profit?

4) Power service available is?

If this is for a hobby then I don't really know what to say other than the $$$ figures you're throwing around would buy older, real machines. I guess that just comes down to space and your abilities to move equipment.

If this is for a business than the hobby machines make zero sense to me. I have less initial investment in a large Mazak CNC lathe, a 3+1 axis 18X30 Mori Vertical and a 4 axis 20x40 VF3 sized VMC with tooling and making parts than that Tormach would cost bare.

I did a lot of research to determine which type of machines I needed. I jumped on deals when they popped up. One machine was purchased with major issues for 1/10th it's fair value and repaired for around $500 in parts and 30 or so hours of my time. I have had machines break down and older machines do have quirks. My experience has been a good tech is invaluable, but it you're not retarded and your livelihood depends on a machine running you will figure it out and get it back online pretty quickly. I've gotten pretty good with a meter and soldering iron and understand the functions of every board, encoder and prox switch in every machine I have. It took me a little bit to grasp Binary, but once I did a lot of things suddenly became a lot clearer.

Initially, I had a meeting with community college instructor for a CNC coarse. He advised me not to take the coarse and gave me his cell # if I had any questions. I hired a part time programmer to get the machines running and making parts. In a few weeks I was camming up parts and figuring out my own milling setups and shitty, inefficient toolpaths. The machines were profitable from the start, but it took a couple years before I would say I was good at doing it.

I struggled far more with CNC turning. Milling was easy for me to take off and run with. Turning tooling, any toolpaths that are a little outside the standard shit and sometimes even the proper order of operations to achieve the desired accuracy have been difficult for me. I love running a manual lathe, but CNC turning is a totally different world in my eyes.

To me, buying the CNC is easy, running code is easy, tweaking existing code is easy, starting with an idea and turning it into a picture and then into code is hard.
I think drafting/ modeling classes are the MOST important curriculum you can invest in.

when you have a machine sitting there, you have a large investment in money and floor space, but to do anything, you have to be able to visualize fixture, clamping,, possible interference and how it all looks in code.

You gotta AIM before you fire.

i agree with the money would be better spent on an older but solid machine. the tooling might cost a little more but you will open up bigger doors of opportunity.

as for my learning, i did it all OJT style. luckily I had good people above me that showed me the reigns. Started off with a really structured environment (Sioux Tools) running cnc lathes (harding slants and slant juniors, older mori's and mazaks). When they moved south, I moved north to job shops and got into a couple places running Okumas (lb15's up to lb50's and a crown). The structured environment helped me get my feet wet while running proven programs, just watching g&m code go up the screen. 4 years of that, into job shops, from simple editing to programming from print. Was a big difference but sure helped having basic knowledge. fast forward another 6 years to when I started here, a true job shop, with hardly any experience on cnc mills and no one to train me on them or mastercam. almost 8 years into this place and I am efficient enough to get the job done and not crash You keep learning tho, always different ways to skin the cat. Fixturing is going to be the biggest learning curve.... point to point on the cnc is gravy....

I think the answer to your question depends heavily on you. Running a CNC machine is not difficult and there are so many learning resources available on the net instantly and for free. I think there are a few questions you need to honestly assess about your situation:

1- Are you a motivated self-learner?

You're gonna run into some walls and frustrating issues without an instructor looking over your shoulder. Are you the kind of person who gives up in these situations or loses motivation?

2- The quality of the machine is critical.

If you are stretching to buy a really ratty machine, you're gonna be miserable. You are seeking ot learn machining; not equipment maintenance. You need something that is accurate, reliable and very easy to service so you can focus on your core skills and not limitations. Lucky for you, speed is the name of the game for production machines, so you can probably find something old and slow that is in perfectly servicable condition.

3- Don't skimp on software.

Individual machine skills, especially in the learning stage, are useless. Getting to know serious software packages is way more valuable becuase you'll use those skills throught whatever machining job/projects you have. I would focus on learning SolidWorks and HSMWorks - they are high quality, their commercial pricing is high but attainable and they are both easy to learn. In the future, I would look to Autodesk Fusion360 and it's integrated CAD/CAM, but it is very very new and not fully mature yet.

Don't let any old-timers scare you off. The best and most innovative machinists I've met are all self-educated. Basic machining is also way easier than the old timers will let on as technology has pushed the skill set up.

I had never touched a cnc when I bought mine, and it was a bit more $ than a tormach. Was making parts in 2-3 days with the tech here, he took care of tuning the post and a few 0's and 1's in the machine to make sure it was happy.
I still don't know much about G-code, but I got a good enough process to get what I need done efficiently enough for the amount of use it gets and everytime I use it I learn a little something more. I could probably learn a fair bit taking a course, but in the end the only thing I really care about these days is making parts and $ and there's not much time to do other stuff.
Come cnc turner time it'll probably be a mazak anyhow.

Thank you guys for your advice...

My main goal is to profit from it... i started 6 months ago in my garage with a 10x36 lathe and a bench mill.. now im making parts for my day time employer, im a maintenance engineer there.. and want to take advantage of that profit to continue learning and buying all the equipment needed to slowly start my own business as a machinest and ultimately start manufacturing food processing machinery... i know it sounds like a big crazy dream, (after all there are quite a few big internationals manufacturers like vemag or multivac) amd i realize it could be very difficult to compete with them. But i just see how their equipment is made and i cant avoid thinking i can make the same machine even better for a lower cost..
Thank you again guys... i think im gonna bite the bullet and go to school first and then buy the equipment...

I guess if you go to school you'll figure out you don't want a $9k machine. I'd rather be shot in the dick then buy a $9k machine.

John Welden said:

I guess if you go to school you'll figure out you don't want a $9k machine. I'd rather be shot in the dick then buy a $9k machine.

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Not me. I don't want to be shot in the dick at all : (

Hell, I would buy 2) 9k machines before i would agree to be shot in the dick.

Grumpy365 said:

Hell, I would buy 2) 9k machines before i would agree to be shot in the dick.

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I wouldn't.

I bought machines first. I would but decent used machines like mentioned above and then you will have something real to work with. Learning programming isn't that hard. Just google everything and find a good friend to help. Then this forum ROCKS for all the help you can get and learn from reading others posts.

I know, everyone learns different. So if you know how you learn best, you also can decide wether to take classes or not.

For me, it looks like a waste of time and money to go to school for 7 months and learn how to CNC.
I have bought my CNC, bought a stupid training software, sat down on my butt and went through the training software for a few days until I was halfway fluent.
Then fired the CNC, and tried to figure out the control. It took me 4 hours for the first program. It ran 2 minutes.

You don't need to know a zillion of G-codes. With G0, G1, G2 and G3 (and G96, G97 on a lathe) you already know 90%. Add M3, M5, M8 and M9 and you can make chips.

Learn to look closely at the preview of your control, know how to crank down the rapids. And after a week in front of the CNC making stupid parts you almost got it.
After that week, read the training book again and you will understand why peck drilling cycles are helpful or G71 is a real shortcut.

Accept that you will break a few endmills or inserts. Still way cheaper than that class. And you learn at exactly your pace and you make breaks to think about what you learned exactly when you want and think it is necessary.

I bet there are good books available and others will make suggestions.

If you have questions about what tools to use, what inserts, etc. Ask here. That's what this forum is for.


Nick

John Welden said:

I guess if you go to school you'll figure out you don't want a $9k machine. I'd rather be shot in the dick then buy a $9k machine.

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I have purchased two old but running Mazak CNC lathes for under $9k each. Hell, buying high quality used shit for a smokin deal is part of the fun.

The smaller of my two Mazaks sold for over $170k back when it was new in 1986. I found the original machine proposal letters, machine options and invoice were in a neatly bound notebook binder which was mixed in with all the OEM machine manuals.

No fuckin way would I buy a new hobby Tormach for $9 let alone $9k.

No fuckin way would I buy a new hobby Tormach for $9 let alone $9k.

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Don't sugar coat it, tell us what you really think

I vote we hold a election for who gets to shoot him (John that is) in the dick, gotta be a election as its only fair every member here gets a chance at such a privilege :-)

adama said:

I vote we hold a election for who gets to shoot him (John that is) in the dick, gotta be a election as its only fair every member here gets a chance at such a privilege :-)

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Good thing we've got that one member who's a sharpshooter. Lots of you old fogeys ain't got the eyesight to hit a target that small.

TeachMePlease said:

Good thing we've got that one member who's a sharpshooter. Lots of you old fogeys ain't got the eyesight to hit a target that small.

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