which cnc lathe control would you prefer: OSP P300L vs. CELOS M730UM

Fabian_Schurter · Dec 17, 2020

.. So first of all whats up everyone, this is my first post on practicalmachinist. I am a cnc mechanic machining out of Lucerne, Switzerland. I work in tooling, where we are about to replace our old cnc lathe, a mori seiki sl-15. It has been a tank, however it is getting old now and we want / need live tooling as well as good hard turning capabilities.

We are now down to our last candidates, it will either be a dmg mori nlx1500/2000 TS Y or a Okuma LB2000 EXII MY. I / we really like both machines from a mechanical standpoint, both should have decent service, and both are in the same range money wise, with some smaller differences.

The mori is our favourite as of now. However in the end it will probably come down to the control; getting the best possible control for our application. We are not a pure production shop, we make mostly make moulds for our plastics department. So, a lot of different single parts and small series. Prototyping, repair, and so on, which we need to be able to program efficiently on the machine. No CAM system as of now.

With our machine candidates now, it will be OKUMA OSP P300L versus MORI CELOS M730UM. Our old lathe has a fanuc control, so I haven't worked with either and don't know them much, apart from the research I've done.

So. Which would you prefer / recommend? And why?

Thanks a lot!!

Have a good one and stay safe and healthy.

Cheers,

Fabian

boosted · Dec 17, 2020

The NLX is a much nicer package IMHO. DMG MORI sells a bazillion of them, and all of the little quality of life improvements they've implemented over the years really add up when compared against an old-school Japanese battle tank like the LB series. The MAPPSV/CELOS is a totally different breed than a FANUC though. Personally, I like the MAPPSV, although a lot of machinists complain about the minimalist touchscreen, moving windows, and unnecessarily cumbersome tool management. Also, the CAPPS conversational programming is just okay. It's a nicer interface than FANUC, but ShopTurn (Siemens) and Mazatrol are both way better.

I don't know the LB series as well as the NLX, but I do know the OSP300 pretty thoroughly. There's no comparison between the OSP and a MAPPSV - the latter is a much more modern interface. Whether "modern" is seen as good or bad depends on your personal perspective.

CORONA VIRUS · Dec 18, 2020

Okuma would always be my choice. The Okuma control is much more powerful. Even the Okumas from 20 years ago are far better. The OSP has more capabilities than anything else. If I was doing small lots I would go for a Mazak for it's quick programming. Compare a canned turning cycle from an Okuma to anything else and you will see what I mean. Rigidity wise, Okuma also has what you want. Very sturdy. I have run both. No way would I get another Mori.

DouglasJRizzo · Dec 18, 2020

Both Okuma and Mori are top drawer machines. Both will give good service and make great parts. Quite frankly I'd be hard pressed to choose between the two. If I really had to, tho, the nod would be towards Okuma. The OSP is a super control. Cycles, speed, and IGF all are tops to me. However, if you went Mori, you'd be getting a super machine. I'm a traditionalist and the old style Japanese tanks like the Okuma LB are machines I identify with. I still have a 1983 Okuma LB-15 that can hold tenths from cold all day, still get parts/service/support, and still makes good money for me! I also have an old Mori SL-3 that does the same. The OSP control is what gets the nod.

Mtndew · Dec 18, 2020

Another vote for Okuma control. I haven't used the Celos, but I've been using Okuma for 25 years and it really is one of the best if not the best control out there.

boosted · Dec 18, 2020

Just keep in mind you are very unlikely to see anybody recommend the Okuma who has lots of experience with both controllers. There are consistently folks on here recommending the OSP300 (which is not a bad controller) who don't know the alternatives (other than HAAS and FANUC) very intimately.

That OSP is again -not bad- but wow, if we're looking at lathe controllers, it doesn't even compete with MAPPSV, or SmoothX, or Siemens 840d/828d. Unless you're comparing to something with a vanilla FANUC slapped on the side, the controller is the weakest point of most modern Okuma platforms.

Mtndew · Dec 18, 2020

boosted said:
Just keep in mind you are very unlikely to see anybody recommend the Okuma who has lots of experience with both controllers. There are consistently folks on here recommending the OSP300 (which is not a bad controller) who don't know the alternatives (other than HAAS and FANUC) very intimately.

Are you saying that Haas and Fanuc are better than Okuma?

70olds · Dec 18, 2020

boosted said:
Just keep in mind you are very unlikely to see anybody recommend the Okuma who has lots of experience with both controllers. There are consistently folks on here recommending the OSP300 (which is not a bad controller) who don't know the alternatives (other than HAAS and FANUC) very intimately.

That OSP is again -not bad- but wow, if we're looking at lathe controllers, it doesn't even compete with MAPPSV, or SmoothX, or Siemens 840d/828d. Unless you're comparing to something with a vanilla FANUC slapped on the side, the controller is the weakest point of most modern Okuma platforms.

I have spent plenty enough time on Siemens 840 with and without CELOS to know that I still prefer the OSP controls. Nothing majorly wrong with it, but not my preferred option. I'm not sure where the shortcomings are that you are referencing. I'm sure OSP os different in plenty of ways but that doesn't mean lacking anywhere.

You are one of the only people I have met who claims to have spent a fair amount of time on an OSP control who DOESN'T prefer it.

To the OP. Neither is a bad way to go. You said that both SHOULD have good service, I would base my decision moreso on that than anything else. Find out if you can from local guys how good the support really is. In our area support for DMG anything is..... responsive time wise, but not great from a technical standpoint. Anything control related that isn't super simple means Siemens (not DMG) has to come in and that get's real expensive real quick when out of warranty.

boosted · Dec 18, 2020

Mtndew said:
Are you saying that Haas and Fanuc are better than Okuma?

No. The Okuma is way better than HAAS and FANUC!

In my opinion, it's just not as good as the other three I listed. My experience is the inverse of 70olds, everybody I know (myself included) who has a lot of seat time on *modern* DMG MORI, Mazaks, or Siemens prefers those controls to the OSP.

Orange Vise · Dec 20, 2020

Hard to go wrong with either machine. The NLX is legendary in Mori's lineup and is probably their most successful machine. A timeless design that hasn't fundamentally changed in nearly 20 years.

CELOS takes some getting used to, but once you configure all the screens exactly the way you want, it becomes difficult to switch back to anything else, IME.

DouglasJRizzo · Dec 20, 2020

boosted said:
Just keep in mind you are very unlikely to see anybody recommend the Okuma who has lots of experience with both controllers. There are consistently folks on here recommending the OSP300 (which is not a bad controller) who don't know the alternatives (other than HAAS and FANUC) very intimately.

That OSP is again -not bad- but wow, if we're looking at lathe controllers, it doesn't even compete with MAPPSV, or SmoothX, or Siemens 840d/828d. Unless you're comparing to something with a vanilla FANUC slapped on the side, the controller is the weakest point of most modern Okuma platforms.

I worked for a major MTB for years. Fanuc, Heidenhain, Siemens, and their own proprietary stuff. I can tell you, from decades of experience, the Okuma OSP is hands down the BEST CNC available. On the best machine. I may have worked for the other guys, but I own Okuma.

Fabian_Schurter · Dec 21, 2020

.. Thanks guys, lots of good inputs, keep 'em coming!

SERVICE, we know for Okuma is good, the guys selling Okuma here are well known and have a good reputation.
We have another DMG we bought in 2012 (ecoline 635 v), as well as another old Mori mill (MV Junior). We haven't been too happy with the support for those, especially for the newer DMG one. BUT the DMG Mori Rep I've been working with now said they now have a new partner company here for all Mori support. Another local shop with several newer Moris I talked too, confirmed our previous experiences with DMG service, but also said he's been very happy with the service now, with the new partner. Actually spoke very highly of the new support.. so, should be good.

Anyway. Deciding will NOT be easy, lots of good in both machines. Final decision will be made first weeks of 2021. As of now probably still nodding towards the NLX. Excellent package, also the guys a few floors above me

really dig the modern look, design and control - digitalization, smart factory, and so on.

Thx,

Fabian

Mr.M · Dec 21, 2020

Fabian_Schurter said:
.. Thanks guys, lots of good inputs, keep 'em coming!

SERVICE, we know for Okuma is good, the guys selling Okuma here are well known and have a good reputation.
We have another DMG we bought in 2012 (ecoline 635 v), as well as another old Mori mill (MV Junior). We haven't been too happy with the support for those, especially for the newer DMG one. BUT the DMG Mori Rep I've been working with now said they now have a new partner company here for all Mori support. Another local shop with several newer Moris I talked too, confirmed our previous experiences with DMG service, but also said he's been very happy with the service now, with the new partner. Actually spoke very highly of the new support.. so, should be good.

Anyway. Deciding will NOT be easy, lots of good in both machines. Final decision will be made first weeks of 2021. As of now probably still nodding towards the NLX. Excellent package, also the guys a few floors above me really dig the modern look, design and control - digitalization, smart factory, and so on.

Thx,

Fabian

If the service with the existing Mori's has been poor, I would not buy another to let them show me it is better especially if they outsourced it to a 3rd party as it may not be a long term solution.

I have used quite a few machines and controls in the past and if you do not have a CAM system I recommend getting the Okuma with "AOT/IGF" on it. That is Okumas conversational programming and it rivals Mazak in its ability but it also outputs the NC program so if the conversational cannot get you just what you want on that rare occasion you can use it to generate 95% of the code and just edit the little bit you need.

boosted · Dec 21, 2020

DouglasJRizzo said:
I worked for a major MTB for years. Fanuc, Heidenhain, Siemens, and their own proprietary stuff.

Same here. Same list of controllers at DMG MORI, with the addition of the Mits like on that NLX. I also did a stint with Mazak. Surely you must know the MAPPSV intimately as well, since you have a strong opinion about it as a viable choice?

DouglasJRizzo said:
I can tell you, from decades of experience, the Okuma OSP is hands down the BEST CNC available.

The fact that you would make that statement without any qualifiers is extremely suspect. So much of what makes a platform "best" comes down to personal preference. Since the OSP300 doesn't win any of the raw performance metrics, you'd have to weigh that statement extremely heavily on personal preference.

DouglasJRizzo said:
I may have worked for the other guys, but I own Okuma.

Again - same here. What vintage? I own a 2015 M560V with an OSP300. It's fantastic iron, but the controller continues to underwhelm. The controller is especially impotent compared to the Siemens 840D/CELOS machine it's sitting next to.

*edit* - I know you're a smart and knowledgeable guy. Don't mean to come off as too hostile. It's just not fair when folks ask these questions, and a bunch of people chime in with one sided knowledge. By all means share your experience with one of the options, but don't say that you know which one is best when you have limited experience (or even no experience at all) with the alternative.

josephk · Dec 21, 2020

boosted said:
I know you're a smart and knowledgeable guy. Don't mean to come off as too hostile. It's just not fair when folks ask these questions, and a bunch of people chime in with one sided knowledge. By all means share your experience with one of the options, but don't say that you know which one is best when you have limited experience (or even no experience at all) with the alternative.

Just asking, I have no experience with IGF or CELOS, the OP said no CAM, what I heard in the past was One touch IGF is "the best" on control programming method for Turning, can you share your experience with that?
I agree most of the general control stuff has a lot to do with personal preference but on control programming is different and should have a valid answer.

DouglasJRizzo · Dec 21, 2020

boosted said:
Same here. Same list of controllers at DMG MORI, with the addition of the Mits like on that NLX. I also did a stint with Mazak. Surely you must know the MAPPSV intimately as well, since you have a strong opinion about it as a viable choice?

The fact that you would make that statement without any qualifiers is extremely suspect. So much of what makes a platform "best" comes down to personal preference. Since the OSP300 doesn't win any of the raw performance metrics, you'd have to weigh that statement extremely heavily on personal preference.

Again - same here. What vintage? I own a 2015 M560V with an OSP300. It's fantastic iron, but the controller continues to underwhelm. The controller is especially impotent compared to the Siemens 840D/CELOS machine it's sitting next to.

*edit* - I know you're a smart and knowledgeable guy. Don't mean to come off as too hostile. It's just not fair when folks ask these questions, and a bunch of people chime in with one sided knowledge. By all means share your experience with one of the options, but don't say that you know which one is best when you have limited experience (or even no experience at all) with the alternative.

Not taken as hostile.
OSP 3000, 5000, 5000G, 5020, 7000, U 100 etc.
In addition to working for the MTB, I also did contract programming/setup, and occasionally, still do. There are very few controls I haven't had my hands on in the 40+ years I've been in CNC. Even real odd stuff like McDonnell-Douglas Actrion, and P&W Team Mate!

I say OSP is best hands down because I found the IGF to be a super programming system, with MAPPS close behind. Just my opinion, but take it for what it's worth. Cycles, Re-start, processing speed. Not to mention it's supported to the bitter end. I can still get memory upgrades, USB ports and all the rest for my LB-15 with OSP 5000L.

The iron is just as good. Rock solid. Again, as I said earlier, I prefer the old style Japanese tanks and the Okuma LB is still the one for me.

litlerob1 · Dec 21, 2020

It's not even a conversation worth having. Biggest factor in the decision is that; DMG doesn't own the control. It can be Fansuc, Celos or other. OSP is Okuma.

People post with confusion about Machine and motion control when they are fitted with controls that are fitted to it. And the popular answer to these questions is the MTB decides how they want the control to operate, whilst the control builder only has limited options to offer, thus they compromise.

@Boosted, I doubt that you have 1000 hours on each. I do. There is no real comparison. OSP3 is hands down the best motion control system available.

R

CORONA VIRUS · Dec 22, 2020

Dude, common. We are not talking about pretty lights and 3d graphics. We are talking about Programming capabilities. The Celos cannot even come close to an Okuma. I have run/programmed Haas, Mazak, Okuma, Anything Fanuc, Siemens and Celos. The Celos control just makes me laugh. It is like a video game for kids. There are only 3 lathe controls that are worth a crap to me. Okuma, Mazak and Siemens.

CORONA VIRUS · Dec 22, 2020

Jmaks said:
Just asking, I have no experience with IGF or CELOS, the OP said no CAM, what I heard in the past was One touch IGF is "the best" on control programming method for Turning, can you share your experience with that?
I agree most of the general control stuff has a lot to do with personal preference but on control programming is different and should have a valid answer.

If you are programming at the control, Mazatrol beats IGF. It's not even close. However, as for control capabilities, nothing beats Okuma. It is just so much more powerful.

gregormarwick · Dec 22, 2020

litlerob1 said:
It's not even a conversation worth having. Biggest factor in the decision is that; DMG doesn't own the control. It can be Fansuc, Celos or other. OSP is Okuma.

People post with confusion about Machine and motion control when they are fitted with controls that are fitted to it. And the popular answer to these questions is the MTB decides how they want the control to operate, whilst the control builder only has limited options to offer, thus they compromise.

@Boosted, I doubt that you have 1000 hours on each. I do. There is no real comparison. OSP3 is hands down the best motion control system available.

R

Small correction, DMG do own Celos, but it's an interface not a control.

CORONA VIRUS said:
The Celos control just makes me laugh. It is like a video game for kids.

This is an absolutely absurd comment, and it makes me extremely sceptical that you have any idea at all what you're talking about. We installed our first Celos machine earlier this year, and I assure you I was not impressed by the flash and dazzle, but it didn't take me long to find some extremely nice features that I wish were on our other controls. If you genuinely think the Celos is not a serious contender then I have to assume you've only ever seen one in pictures.

There's plenty I don't like about it but I would have another one in a heartbeat. Make of that what you will.

CORONA VIRUS said:
However, as for control capabilities, nothing beats Okuma. It is just so much more powerful.

How is it more powerful?

which cnc lathe control would you prefer: OSP P300L vs. CELOS M730UM

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