CNC rebuild/remanufacture

I have a mid 80's vintage Mitsubishi MH-50A 5 Axis HMC that is structurally sound but the controller is done for, fanuc or mitsubishi can't/won't resurrect it. I'm considering having it recontrolled and rebuilt does anyone have any experience with that on a machine such as this?

I know a guy in Kansas that put EMC2 on a heavy Cincinnati hydrotel type 5 ax.... but it depends on what your budget is, what size axis motors you need, and what type of control you want. If its a big heavy sucker axis motors alone will cost you plenty if you have to replace them.

it's a 500mm pallet machine so the motors aren't outrageous. it seams a fanuc set up is ~15-20k per axis (motors drives encoders) but then there's all the machine tool stuff that has to go on as well, ways, tool changer, seals, bearings yaddda. no budget as of yet but to replace with a comparable new machine would be in the half a mil range. the machine itself if solid so dropping up to 200k would be probably reasonable to get a quality rebuild done and get another 25 years out of it. I just dont know who to trust with something like this.

repair vc retrofit

Depending on what is wrong with the control, repair may be very feasible. What is the model and what are your problems?
Please be specific. You can contact me direct: [email protected]
Bill

Fanuc 11m, it was shut down for 6 months waiting on a new main bearing from Mitsubishi (Japan), we missed the battery that kept the ROM for the tool changer and a couple other functions alive. so the ROM is gone. basically need the rom re loaded but mitsubishi US says they can't do it as does the local fanuc.

Well that sucks if no-one has a copy of the ladder, but by installing a new control doesn't fix that problem anyway. If you go new - you will still hafta tackle that as well. Maybe you need someone to write a new one for you, or maybe you can find someone with a similar machine to pirate from?

If you wunna dump 200K into it, then you can prolly justify going to a new Fanuc and new drives and motors then eh?

If not - and you want to stick with the old junk - it is tough to find anyone with 5x ability that will still interface to analog drives. Dynopath has a control that will do 5x analog. I really liked the Dynopath for a mill control when I had one, and am leaning that way to a 5x retrofit here as well.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

200K You could probly do everything you ever wanted to do to it for under 40K with a new control.

i don't wanna dump 200 into it but 200 is a lot better than 500! and i could really use the capacity. I have it's twin brother right next to it just need a way to copy the rom from one to the other and that might resurrect it. I will look into dynapath too.

Speedie said:

200K You could probly do everything you ever wanted to do to it for under 40K with a new control.

Click to expand...

I think 40k would get me the controller, but if new controller can't talk to the old analog drives, it's still 5 axes worth of motors and encoders to go with that 40.

Why are motors 15-20K with drives that seems rediculously high to me. We outiftted a 80" travel VMC with new motors and drives for 4 axis with controller for $28K about 8 years ago. I am not sure what kind of thrust you need but that was 3800ftlbs in each axis when you add in the screw pitch.

You should call evolution and see what they would charge. Depending on the motors you already have you may only need the main unit instead of new amplifiers.

I was quoted about 80k for a 3 axis 60 x 30 x 30 vmc with 30 nm motors going with a fanuc 18i on a retrofit price... 20k control plus 20k per axis, but it was pretty good sized motors. at that point it was about 50% cost of a new machine and that was uninstalled....

I have an old Cinci that has an MDSI - PC based control on it.
You don't hear much from them in the trade mags anymore, but they have been at IMTS in recent years, so they must be going strong. I think they may have their core customer groups maybe?

http://mdsi2.com/

Anyway - I am very happy with their product. The machine runs super! Nice and tight control.
... now the retrofitter mucked up the ladder a bit - which gives it a quirk or two, but that's not MDSI - that's the retrofitter. I just kant believe that they didn't make them fix it?


They did kinda piss me off when I wanted to upgrade it to full 4x. They told me that I needed to pay for forty leven updates that had been done to their software since my machine was done. I don't remember the cost, but it was quite steep. I opted to stick with 3-1/2 axis thank you very much...

One other main concern about going with a PC based (ANY PC based) is that when you need a part - you need to know what you need, and scour the used market for it, b/c PC tech changes so fast that you cannot buy what'chew need at Staples anymore.

Case in point is the unit that I have - my software is mid 90's Qnx/DOS. It is designed for a mid 90's tower with 3.5 floppy. It doesn't know what a CD, thumb drive, or memory card is. The motion control card needs a mother board with an old skewl port, apparently not available anymore.

With that said tho - I have taken the tower to them when it has crashed, and they have done whatever they needed to to git me going aggin. I don't know if they search e-bay for the right used 'putor, or they upgrade my card, or what, but for about $3K they send it back and it werks. THAT's what I know!

$3K is NOT what the salesman tells you about. The concept of PC based is cheap parts that you buy uptown. And while that IS correct, the issue is if you can buy them 5 or 10 yrs from now. If you know what you are dooing, you can likely repair for $100 and keep needed parts on hand.

$3K is not all that out of line compared to what a control repair may cost from someone else maybe?

I had an 18i toss a CPU a cpl weeks ago. $1400 and I am back in business the next day via phone support!

We thought the CPU was dying in this h'yah 'putor at the same time, and a new whiz bang unit for this was $125! So ... ???


Back to the integrator issue that I have...
Prolly 10 yrs ago - MDSI merged (partnered?) with their #1 integrator, and now you can only get turn key units via them. ..and one of the main reasons for this was too many half-assed retrofits with their name out there.


Since I was so impressed with the PC control on this one, I tried the "roll yuhr own" method with Camsoft.
That has left a bad taste in my mouth, and that is the unit that will likely get a new control aggin one day.
It is out there running right now, but.... I don't feel like I have control in manual mode, and we have umpteen hours in the code since it is SO "open".

I would rather go with a Fanuc system that for the most part I could doo myself prolly. Go through the params and figer out what each is, and fill in the blanks. But the ladder would need custom altered for each machine... The MDSI video shows it running a 5x. Looks pretty smooth...

Just depends on how much you wunna spend...

Another option would be to update with used parts. You can get used Fanuc amps and motors on Ebay and such for good prices. I would think that you could get an digi amp and 2 motors for $7500. An 18M/18iM control for ??? So you could have used/rebuilt hardware for $25K? That is red caps and relatively current technology?

That gets you the best in parts and service ability and options of anything.
Maybe I am talking myself into that as well?

The Fanuc will NOT talk to any amps other than their own AFAIK. You just tell the control what motor you have and it adjusts everything internally to accommodate it. I ass_u_me the same is true for amps, but I don't have that experience. I have recently changed to a different motor on one, and that was quite painless. But the motor was within the range of the amp -so I didn't have to dink with that part, but it's likely the same... ???

Maybe your Fanuc ladder could be slid on over?
It would at the very least be a super guideline.

You could maybe get a complete setup with cables and all from a scrapper or whatnot...
Elk CNC in Chi-Town (I am guessing Elk Grove Village, but I don't remember) has oodles of stuff. I got a brand new motor from him with some really nice shape cables for used prices. He sold it to me as used, but I found no evidence that it had ever been mounted. He said that he has about 8000 sqr' full of stuff like that. The guy at Elk has pretty good knowledge, and can give you pointers.

Tennessee Industrial Electronics would be another good source to get you going. They would have maybe a little better support.


EDIT:

BTW - The Fanuc WILL talk to other non-Fanuc spindle drives.
At least up to 16T/M anyway. I have a 16 and an 0, and both have AB and Seimens type drives.
So you wouldn't likely have to update the spindle drive/motor if you din't want to.
But you could at a later date of course.


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Just some fat to chew on for a while...
Ox

I've seen quite a few Siemens retrofits lately, ranging from the basic to full blown superb 7+axis with full C and such. I know these guys are pretty good and honest about what is involved with a retrofit and they have been doing quite a few Cinci and Hardinge retrofits lately [email protected] .

If you know someone that works electronics, Kee Electronics makes a programmer that could probably copy your ROM chip.

I´ve seen some really nice projects done by these guys:

Marathon

AMS

I would give them a call and see what they have to say about it.

HTH

easy fix?

1: We designed a plug compatible control retrofit for the Fanuc 6 series. It uses Delta Tau motion control hardware and software and has up to 8 analog axes.
2: ROM does not need battery backup; I am unclear what vital info was lost when the battery died: absolute position?
3: This MAY be relative easy fix, but a forum takes too long respond. Please call 289 389 6117 and we don't do retrofits anymore.

memoryman said:

1: We designed a plug compatible control retrofit for the Fanuc 6 series. It uses Delta Tau motion control hardware and software and has up to 8 analog axes.
2: ROM does not need battery backup; I am unclear what vital info was lost when the battery died: absolute position?
3: This MAY be relative easy fix, but a forum takes too long respond. Please call 289 389 6117 and we don't do retrofits anymore.

Click to expand...

Any relation to Solar?



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

That Fanuc 11M is a GREAT control, and I think your best bet is to get it running again-could be easy if you have a twin right next to it. I don't understand about the ROM if its on the Fanuc side, as memoryman said, the Fanuc control does not use batteries for back up, its bubble memory. More likely by the sounds of it, its a separate PLC that uses batteries for backup. You need to get info on what that PLC is, then find someone that knows about them-Mits may be able to help, I'm assuming that's who made that PLC, its just that they very unlikely to have the machine specific parameters it takes, if you can get them off your other machine then upload them to the dead one, you may be in business.

No, I don't know who they are.