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Comparing a Haas VF-1 to a TM-1

SIM

Titanium
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Location
Staten Island NewYork USA
As of late I am running alot of simple jobs, light milling, drilled holes...some tapped. Quantities not overly high so I'm not looking for Brother Speedio speeds. But would be nice to free up the VF-s for bigger, better jobs.

I was looking towards a Mini-Mill as I didn't need the power and travel while saving a few bucks and some space over a VF-1.

BUT I do have a few jobs a little extra travel would be nice and saw the TM-1...add Rigid Tap and maybe a 4th card and I'd have a nice size Lighter duty VF-1.


So anybody run both machines and can offer some insight. I'm thinking slower, less power...but tolerances about the same? Good points bad points...

Can you hang parts off the back for extra reach like on a bridgeport? I do get some jobs I need the extra Z height.
 
We bought TM2P like the machine but if we had it to do over would buy VF2.
Exact same here. I really wanted the extra Y for less money. It's done a great job but the 10" Y table sucks. Really would like to use double station 6" vises but that means 3" hanging off the back and 7 hanging off the front including the whole front part.

Haven't gotten to compare directly with vfs but my TM holds nice tolerance. I machine a lot of large alumimum parts, tens of thousands of fixtured AL parts, and most recently 5,000 tool steel parts that run 20 hours most days. Happy Owner, but not sure I'll buy another Haas new. Had to replace the spindle belt, they said I needed new motor and spindle due to belt wear on the non replaceable pulleys. $12K. Figured out that they use the same belt on the 30HP VF so I swapped for one half the size and I can talk on the phone in the shop now.

Did have to replace the spindle due to a very dumb programming glitch in the Haas jog away feature... FYI... If you don't jog in Z it costs you a $4600 new spindle. It cancels tool height, then when it moves back if there was no Z it never calls the tool height just rapids into the part, pushed it through the steel fixture and trashed the bearings.


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Can you hang parts off the back for extra reach like on a bridgeport? I do get some jobs I need the extra Z height.

SIM, that's just another fuck up by Haas.

In my book a VF is a machining center ( whatever the VF stands for ), while a TM is a Toolroom Mill with CNC and manual capabilities.

The day they've put an enclosure around the TM machines is when I decided to get a used Milltronics MB19.

While the control sucks monkey balls ( though reliable and accurate ), the machine gives you everything a Bridgeport does for capability, and adds the
rigidity of a bed mill.

To boot, the manual quill with the Newall scale is an absolute gift from god.


IOW, if you need to get off-hand work done, Haas doesn't really have too much on Milltronics. In fact, they have nothing on them,


Sidenote: Too bad Haas did not figure out how to make an offer on Milltronics before Hurco did, but I am still holding out for a slight hope that
they ( Haas ) buys Southwestern Industries ( ProtoCrap) before it's too late.
 
SIM, that's just another fuck up by Haas.

In my book a VF is a machining center ( whatever the VF stands for ), while a TM is a Toolroom Mill with CNC and manual capabilities.

The day they've put an enclosure around the TM machines is when I decided to get a used Milltronics MB19.

While the control sucks monkey balls ( though reliable and accurate ), the machine gives you everything a Bridgeport does for capability, and adds the
rigidity of a bed mill.

To boot, the manual quill with the Newall scale is an absolute gift from god.


IOW, if you need to get off-hand work done, Haas doesn't really have too much on Milltronics. In fact, they have nothing on them,


Sidenote: Too bad Haas did not figure out how to make an offer on Milltronics before Hurco did, but I am still holding out for a slight hope that
they ( Haas ) buys Southwestern Industries ( ProtoCrap) before it's too late.


It was my understanding that Haas either put an enclosure on the TM's or take the Tool Changer off the TM's. Safety thing...


So a short 10" Y travel and can't hang parts off the table to gain some height...

Program quirks outside the VH- machine so its not learn one know all...


Thanks...I was hoping a lighter duty knee mill that could run soft jobs while be a bit more versatile.


Kinda closes that door.

Appreciate the feedback.
 
It was my understanding that Haas either put an enclosure on the TM's or take the Tool Changer off the TM's. Safety thing...


So a short 10" Y travel and can't hang parts off the table to gain some height...

Program quirks outside the VH- machine so its not learn one know all...


Thanks...I was hoping a lighter duty knee mill that could run soft jobs while be a bit more versatile.


Kinda closes that door.

Appreciate the feedback.

Just to clarify it's a 10" table not 10" travel. The Y travel is 16". So in theory you could contour the front and back of the table itself with a 6" tool LOL. Most of my fixtures are 12" (1" hanging off the front and back) my vises hang three off the back and 4 off the front. Double stations start at 20" and go up from there so it's just too much for comfort for me.

I have machined the end of a 16" part by laying the vise on it's side hanging off the Y- with the part held as low as I could without hitting the rails (6" below the table surface). So one day out of two years the small table was handy I guess.

Not sure how big of parts you are trying to work on but esentially you have 3" off the back of the table and about 7.5 or 8" off the front so 19" (first three hanging out of travel) total possible part length in Y
 
Just to clarify it's a 10" table not 10" travel. The Y travel is 16". So in theory you could contour the front and back of the table itself with a 6" tool LOL. Most of my fixtures are 12" (1" hanging off the front and back) my vises hang three off the back and 4 off the front. Double stations start at 20" and go up from there so it's just too much for comfort for me.

I have machined the end of a 16" part by laying the vise on it's side hanging off the Y- with the part held as low as I could without hitting the rails (6" below the table surface). So one day out of two years the small table was handy I guess.

Not sure how big of parts you are trying to work on but esentially you have 3" off the back of the table and about 7.5 or 8" off the front so 19" (first three hanging out of travel) total possible part length in Y


That does help a bit. My 95 VF-1's have just enough room behind table to drop parts a couple inches and that makes those machines capable of running some additional parts that I can't run in a new VF-2. If I had 7"...it would open the door for a few more parts too.
Guess I'll have to go see one in person to get a better idea. Every new door opens another...
 
You're a little far or I'd offer you to come check mine out. Overall I'm happy with it. I purchased it for one specific production part and wanted walk away time over all else. I can live with each part taking 2-5 seconds longer because of slower rapids if it means I can walk away for 3 hours instead of 1.4 hours. Of course my new production stuff I can fit 300 parts in my pocket and really need a 15K spindle...
 
I have a TM2P. I makes a nice part, and for proto work it has enough horsepower. It is also slower than a seven year itch. It's tool change time is painful, and it's acc/dec is also tuned way back compared to a VF or Mini. If you live in a land without tight timeframes, it's a great versatile machine. If you are job shop with a sharp pencil, you may be disappointed.

I had an open TM1 with a tool changer. I hated that machine with a virulent passion.

Doing it again, I would have gotten the VF.
 
I almost bought a TM2 and actually canceled the contract with Haas (before I wrote the check) and bought a fryer MB10 w/6000 control. I still have that machine (11 years problem free)and looking back can't imagine why I ever considered the TM. Likewise it is also just as puzzling to me as to why the resale values of the TM's are as high as they are. FWIW for the same price as the TM2 I got the MB10 which is easily 2X the machine (9K spindle, full 4axis, probing (tool and part), ethernet, rigid tap etc). I did have to build an enclosure for it but for the one off prototype work it is incredibly fast and easy to use. However, as great as the fryer has been, if I had to do it again I'd be leaning toward a VF1 or 2. The only advantage of having a machine like this is the size of the work envelope. The fryer's is 31"x18" which you would have to go up to a VF2 to come close to. That to me is the only advantage and I find myself wishing I had a proper enclosure with good coolant control more than I find myself running really big parts.
 
Just to clarify it's a 10" table not 10" travel. The Y travel is 16". So in theory you could contour the front and back of the table itself with a 6" tool LOL. Most of my fixtures are 12" (1" hanging off the front and back) my vises hang three off the back and 4 off the front. Double stations start at 20" and go up from there so it's just too much for comfort for me.

I have machined the end of a 16" part by laying the vise on it's side hanging off the Y- with the part held as low as I could without hitting the rails (6" below the table surface). So one day out of two years the small table was handy I guess.

Not sure how big of parts you are trying to work on but esentially you have 3" off the back of the table and about 7.5 or 8" off the front so 19" (first three hanging out of travel) total possible part length in Y
Orange Vise can set you up with a 16" vise. It can be set up with double jaw, reverse, or standard, just by moving the parts on the base. Very cool stuff.

I have a super mini-mill, and a mini-mill 2. The 2 has a larger envelope, but still fully enclosed. Travel 20X16X14. Faster than TM, but slower than the VF's. If one loads it up, can be almost as pricey as a VF. It does use less power though. It is a pretty decent machine. I've seen a few used MM2's from time to time, might be something to look at.

I started with a 3 horse knee mill, with an Anilam control. Made a LOT of parts on it. Hung stuff off the table at times, used spray mist to minimize mess. No tool changer though. A tool changer is such an awesome accessory.
 
Orange Vise can set you up with a 16" vise. It can be set up with double jaw, reverse, or standard, just by moving the parts on the base. Very cool stuff.

I have a super mini-mill, and a mini-mill 2. The 2 has a larger envelope, but still fully enclosed. Travel 20X16X14. Faster than TM, but slower than the VF's. If one loads it up, can be almost as pricey as a VF. It does use less power though. It is a pretty decent machine. I've seen a few used MM2's from time to time, might be something to look at.

I started with a 3 horse knee mill, with an Anilam control. Made a LOT of parts on it. Hung stuff off the table at times, used spray mist to minimize mess. No tool changer though. A tool changer is such an awesome accessory.

I've been eyeing the 17.5" from orange for quite a while. I think Sal is a great designer and have 3 of the Glacern vises. Even had one of the first Eagle or whatever from GMT after he left (LOOOOonnnng story) and had to return it as it deflected too much when tightened on the 10" TM2P table. As it was one of the first ones they made it was very 'unrefined' and had sharp edges everywhere. Talked to Sal about the orange and he sent tons of detailed info and CAD files. They would be pretty much perfect since I can leave 3 vises on my table and convert two to reg and center one to reverse to get 12" parts with three ops machined without face tool hitting adjacent part, then just convert back to double for these productions. Just need to pony up the $6K for the set of three....... prolly do it early next year.orange vise.jpg
 
Eric set me up with a 16" version of the 17.5" - kind of still on topic since the machines in this size range would use this stuff.
I bought the used Robodrill from Milicon, and will likely end up with these vises on it. I also have a couple of the 4" double from Glacern.
The Robo is another machine to consider - envelope a little small but low power requirements and blazing fast.

I still prefer the Haas control though. I don't have the NG control, but the 68k, coldfire, and coldfire 2. They have it all over Fanuc as far as ease of use.

It's all up to the machine envelope. There are some TM-1 out there without full enclosures, and with a tool changer. Seems like a lot of people end up making a mess by trying to use them like a full enclosure machine though. If expectations are reasonable, they can make one some $$$$.
 








 
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