What's new
What's new

Comprehensive comparison: (Swiss) Tsugami versus Citizen

Frank12

Plastic
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Comparing Tsugami and Citizen, 20mm models, both with Esprit, and both running oil, based off of your experiences which one wins? on (1) machine costs (new), (2) resale value, (3) market share, (4) available third-party tooling, (5) b axis capability, (6) noise level, and (7) customer service
 
I have a Tsugami B0205-ii (20mm) and 325-ii (32mm) but, other than at IMTS, have never even touched a Citizen so I can not compare much. I believe Tsugami costs a little less but Citizen has a correspondingly-higher reputation for quality. I imagine resale value is proportional to their respective values when new. Not sure on market share. For my applications “third-party tooling” means 1/2” square shank ISO turning tools holders/inserts, ER16 collets, etc so I imagine there those are all readily-available on both machines. No clue on B-axis capability. The noisiest things for me are probably the non-ground bars rattling around and the oil pumps which, again, would be the same on either machine but maybe you’re looking for something whisper-quiet so I don’t know. I know the Tsugami is direct drive spindle (i.e. no belt) but I imagine the Citizen is, too. Customer service (applications, service, and sales) is good on the Tsugami but that may very depending on your location. I can say I have had to email [email protected] and have gotten responses instantly. But again Citizen could have elves that go out in the night and fix all your problems (free for one year and charge monthly after that) and I wouldn’t know.
 
How do you like side gang tool arrangement on Tsugami? Can you get highpressure oil hitting above point of insert contact on both sides? Have you / do you use their oscillating cutting? (Chip breaking) Thanks!
 
It's been ages since I had anything to do with Citizen and Tsugami machines, but back when I did, I really liked how Citizen had provided really easy to use tool setup functions on the control. Tsugami seemed to cut corners on the control to reduce costs.
 
Definitely will look into this on the control comparisons. From what I can tell both brands tool offsetting procedures are set by manual jog to stock. No offset tool sensor to jog tools to.
 
I've worked on Citizen M3, M4, L12, and for the last couple years have been clocking most of my time on an L20-XII with a bit of L12. I programmed myself out of work on the M3 and M4 for the most part :rolleyes5:

As with others I can only offer one perspective as I've not worked with Tsugami.

I'm in SoCal and Citizen's support is top notch. 99% of the time someone is there within 24 hours if an issue pops up. The only time I can think of bad response times is when a few of their techs were working out-of-state for a couple weeks. I don't know how the service is in the rest of the state. Minor issues usually only take a phone call or two to fix. As far as service costs, I can't help you there as that knowledge is above my pay grade.

Tooling is freely available, third party or otherwise. Utilis, kennametal, applitec, etco, ph horn, sandvik, genswiss, take your pick. We have and use them all. You are correct, tool setting is done by touching off on bar stock. I've never known any other way, but some kind of tool setter could possibly help. Either way, you're probably going to need to dial it in.

The B-axis on the L20 is quite versatile, I'm a fan. 135 degrees of total travel gives lots of options. It's stock oil lines leave much to be desired, but if you replace them (and their aluminum tubing that breaks off the second time you try to position it) you're good to go. I don't recommend thread whirling with the B-axis, it is possible but is not the most rigid of setups and running the exact same parts we see 50-60% of the insert life on the L20 versus the M3 that has a static-mount whirler replacing two of the live gang tools.

The newer models of L20 have one coolant pump and a separate pump for high pressure, both of which are significantly quieter than the pumps on older models. The flood coolant lines are kind of a pain in the rear, especially if you're doing B-axis work AND work with the sub-spindle tooling as you then have the two worst-case scenarios and there is maybe a 3" window to set all 6-8 coolant lines and not have them knocked around. The saving grace here is there are enough ports to get high pressure to every stick tool on the gang and even a couple of the live tools.

I use Esprit as well and while the post sometimes spits out many lines of strange-looking code (no, most tool paths do not need 5 digits after the decimal) it gets the job done. I've found that it is best for complex and asymmetric features. Recently I had a screw with a T20 torx head, the tool path Esprit gave me was massive. I simply made some geometry, took some coordinates and programmed my own hexalobe with G2/G3 and cutter comp. What had been who knows how many lines by Esprit was done in about 15 lines by hand.

I'll be happy to answer any other questions, if I can.
 
How do you like side gang tool arrangement on Tsugami? Can you get highpressure oil hitting above point of insert contact on both sides? Have you / do you use their oscillating cutting? (Chip breaking) Thanks!

I have no problems with the cross slide being "horizontal" and setting tools really isn't a problem...all the holders have shoulders on them so they slide into the tool block up against those shoulders after changing inserts so the offsets stay the same (at least in my world of +/- .005" for most features.) I don't really have any problems with chip build up but I believe the Citizen cross slide is vertical ("above" the material) so birds nests / chip wrapping is less likely to be a problem.
 
I am new to swiss and we just got a Tsugami. I do like the slide configuration and while we didn't get a B axis we did get an angle adjustable live tool holder so we can do offset drilling/milling and rigid tapping. Control is a 32i so no slouch (though I hate FANUC anything). I really like the Sandvik quick change tooling for ours but we have had a few toolholders be on backorder from Europe. I've been able to program around that issue but still something to think of. I'm also waiting for the quick change sticks for the T27 position, which is your general front turning tool spot. It is different than any other location and the holder has been on backorder since we got the machine up and running in October. We have not checked with other manufacturers as we have a tooling certificate through Sandvik.

I also can say this thing cuts dead nuts on all day and night. We do mostly 304 and 416 stainless.

We've got the chucker conversion but run all G&P. We got it for a "just in case" situation if all our other turning centers are busy. 32mm really covers a lot of our parts!

We're using low pressure coolant emulsion since we do all short run parts and swap inserts between runs; we may still add high pressure coolant. When Tsugami says "high pressure ready" they mean it - all the connections and M-Codes are already there, waiting for the pump to be plugged in.

I honestly didn't even look at other makes since we had such good initial luck with Morris and the performance of our fixed headstock Tsugami. If something goes South trust me you'll all hear about it LOL.

Hope that helps.
 
Thanks everyone! This has been extremely helpful.

How are both brands on filtering the oil when cycling it?

(many machines for example that use coolant just have a base tray and usually two sliding screens, but bits still get through so third-party filters are used to clean/catch particles, to which you gotta keep an eye on the bags and change them),

and I don't want to clog the lines and really want serious consideration on all aspects with regards to surface finish,
 
Thanks everyone! This has been extremely helpful.

How are both brands on filtering the oil when cycling it?

(many machines for example that use coolant just have a base tray and usually two sliding screens, but bits still get through so third-party filters are used to clean/catch particles, to which you gotta keep an eye on the bags and change them),

and I don't want to clog the lines and really want serious consideration on all aspects with regards to surface finish,

I think that has more to do with the chip conveyor/high pressure coolant system than the machine tool. The LNS chip conveyor I have has a screen filter in the bottom and an air knife that blasts the chips off that didn’t fall off via gravity into the drum. The HPC system has a fabric filter bag that has to get cleaned or changed out once the feeder pump pressure falls below a certain threshold - a small feeder pump sucks oil through the filter into the high pressure pump and the pressure inlet of the small pump is monitored so once the bag is clogged enough the pressure drops and throws an alarm or you can catch it before it alarms out if you’re keeping an eye on the pressure gage. As to how good of a job it does filtering I can’t say other than looking at the micron mesh of the bag. Like I said, though, it’s fabric so it filters out a lot of tiny bits....not just like the front-porch screen filters often found in coolant pans. Are you considering HPC?
 
Hmmm. That brings up a great point, pressure of oil lines, oil mist thereto, and fire hazard.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/high-pressure-coolant-new-tsugami-309067/

I'll definitely be getting a variable pressure system as I want to aid in breaking those chips, but definitely need to look into the machine manuals to see what pressure ranges come standard, and balance this with mist in general, and a mist control unit.

Fire suppression unit will be an absolute must on either machine.

Curious, are you just flooding your cuts, or directing oil lines with pressure? What pressure are you running oil lines at?
 
HERE IS A COPY PASTE FROM THE LINK ABOVE:

"The pressure output is directly linked to your orifice size."

"My pressure output at the tool ranges from around 250 psi(thru knock out pin) to around 1000psi thru a small boring bar/ drill. The only time you really need to go above 1000psi output is for small coolant thru drills or if you are attempting to run multiple lines at once."

(But don't know if he/she was running coolant or oil.)
 
HERE IS A COPY PASTE FROM THE LINK ABOVE:

"The pressure output is directly linked to your orifice size."

"My pressure output at the tool ranges from around 250 psi(thru knock out pin) to around 1000psi thru a small boring bar/ drill. The only time you really need to go above 1000psi output is for small coolant thru drills or if you are attempting to run multiple lines at once."

(But don't know if he/she was running coolant or oil.)

Both REM (importer for Tsugami) and Marubeni Citizen Cincom (importer of Citizen) own high pressure pump companies. These pumps are not built by the machine tool builder but are add-on items. They all have filters but I would not buy one without adding a stand up Rosedale bag filter. You will want a mist collector and if you are running overnight a fire suppression system is smart money spent. Since I was a Citizen dealer for many years and owned a Swiss shop for a short time, I am partial to Citizen but both are quality products. The guys at MCC in SOCAL are the bet in the business.
 
Hmmm. That brings up a great point, pressure of oil lines, oil mist thereto, and fire hazard.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/high-pressure-coolant-new-tsugami-309067/

I'll definitely be getting a variable pressure system as I want to aid in breaking those chips, but definitely need to look into the machine manuals to see what pressure ranges come standard, and balance this with mist in general, and a mist control unit.

Fire suppression unit will be an absolute must on either machine.

Curious, are you just flooding your cuts, or directing oil lines with pressure? What pressure are you running oil lines at?

I might be under thinking it but I 1) flood the part from all angles and 2) have individual high pressure coolant lines aimed at my turning, cutoff and grooving tool locations at the highest pressure possible without creating "too much" mist...I cannot remember the last time I adjusted the pressure regulator. There is also a HPC port going through the sub spindle - even though a pneumatic cylinder pushes the part out the coolant helps wash the sub of chips.
 
Same with the Citizen L20. Flood as much as possible, HP on turn tools whenever possible. Micro mills and drills always get high pressure, even if that means a turn tool goes without. All our machines have mist collectors and the fabric bag filters in the high pressure unit. We change the filters monthly which is probably overkill but keeps our oil flowing nicely. If I'm running the thread whirler, I have to change the filter bag every week or else there is potential for so much chip buildup that the high pressure pump will collapse the metal cage basket that the filter resides in and holder, filter and chips become one. Then you have to order a new basket. Ask me how I know that one :D So there is at least one difference, it would be nice to have a sensor on the HP output to know when it's getting to be too much buildup but Citizen doesn't have one that I know of.

We have most of our high pressure units set to 800-1000psi, how much that translates to at the tool I couldn't tell you. I know I wouldn't want to put a finger in front of that stream. And same as the Tsugami, the sub spindle also has high pressure. Good for cleaning out chips as Nerdlinger said, or ejecting parts too small for a knockout pin.

Oh, and we use full synthetic Swiss Silver cutting oil and it works great.
 
Thanks all! Thanks SWYooper and Nerdlinger! All great comments.

I think we're good here. I'll be continuing my analysis/comparisons offline (weight, space requirements, rpm, tool arrangements, etc.), but wanted to thank everyone on their input!

Thank you.
 








 
Back
Top