Considering a new Haas Super Mini Mill?

I make parts for my own business I have a Trak DPM Bed Mill with an AGE 3 control and a Shop Sabre CNC router IS510. I have been making parts for my own business I don't do any job shop type work.

I have started a new line of products where I am needing to tap 6061 T6 aluminum parts. I make some of the parts on the bed mill and some on the router the router has a 15 place tool changer with a MQL oil mist system. The problem with using the router for aluminum is I basically have to run it as a manual tool change to position the oil mist nozzles for each tool. The mist nozzles will hit the tool change rack if I don't move them out of the way during a tool change.

The bed mill is a manual tool change with no enclosure I run cool mist on the bed mill it has flood coolant but you can't keep it on the machine what a mess when I tried to use it. The bed mill has no tapping except when I run it in 2 axis mode and use a tapping head. The parts I am making use 5 tools and then I put them back on the machine after running a batch to tap them using the tapping head. I tried taping with a drill and tap but that doesn't work well the holes do not get tapped straight which makes them not align well with the matting parts. The tapping head works good but it is not very productive. Having an enclosure and being able to tap would make cycle times very fast.

Why a mini mill one it can be ran single phase. I don't need a super rigid machine I only plan to mill aluminum with it. Down side is I would like at least 20" of X but the bigger mini mill starts getting more $$ than I wanted to spend. What other brands could I look at. No Tormachs for me I would consider Sharp or Brother, Hurco Etc.

I need to keep this under 50K to make the ROI make sense. The other reason I like the mini mill is I plan to retire in a few more years and I can move the mini mill into a garage to putter around with.

Programming I use software specific to a CNC router that does not support any tapping and the Trak mill I program at the control. I have been doing my own programing on the machines I have for 10 years but I will need to learn something to make my parts on the new machine. The reading I have done make it sound like the haas would be fairly easy to learn. No 4th or 5th axis work just really simple profiles and drilling / tapping operations. I can draw the parts easily on my current CAD program and export as a DXF if need be.

Thanks for any suggestions.

I got a Brother S500X1 into my garage for not much more (considering the Phase Perfect and transformer etc). The main reason I discarded the Mini-Mill idea was the integrated coolant tank. Maybe if you'll always run dry it might not matter, but to me, I really like being able to remove that tank and really clean it out if I need to. Preventing the need to clean is usually best, so I have some fine filters bags now, but that was my main concern.

CAD/CAM, Fusion 360 has been working for me, there is now what I consider an excellent post for the Brother.

There's other options out there, but let the sales guys impress you with their quotes. For me, the deal came around at IMTS, so if you can't wait till next year, it's all up in the air on who will be cheapest, but I would pay a bit more to get what you want rather than what's $5k cheaper.

droshi said:

I got a Brother S500X1 into my garage for not much more (considering the Phase Perfect and transformer etc). The main reason I discarded the Mini-Mill idea was the integrated coolant tank. Maybe if you'll always run dry it might not matter, but to me, I really like being able to remove that tank and really clean it out if I need to. Preventing the need to clean is usually best, so I have some fine filters bags now, but that was my main concern.

CAD/CAM, Fusion 360 has been working for me, there is now what I consider an excellent post for the Brother.

There's other options out there, but let the sales guys impress you with their quotes. For me, the deal came around at IMTS, so if you can't wait till next year, it's all up in the air on who will be cheapest, but I would pay a bit more to get what you want rather than what's $5k cheaper.

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Did you buy it new? What kind of money was it? I have not contacted any sales guys yet I am just looking at prices on the net. It would be spring before I buy but I am starting the research now. I have a couple trade shows to do at the first of the year that will let me know what to spend or if I should just outsource the work.

I have had at least one Mini Mill since they came out (literally, I think the first one we bought was at Westec the year they were introduced). They are not particularly fast or rigid, but they make money for me day after day. If you want to run on single phase you are limited to a standard Mini Mill (not a Super).

A new Mini Mill 2 with basic equipment will be substantially less than $50k. You can move them around with just about any fork lift (we used to move them from cell to cell with a pallet jack). They draw about 30 amps of 220 Volts, so well suited for garage work. Plus, you can sell them in about 45 minutes on Craigslist if you don't like them.

There are better machines for high volume production that will blow the Mini away on speed, rigidity, accuracy, tool change... for a good small all round machine I have nothing but good to say about them.

Yup brand new, sent you a PM.

If you really just need the base mini-mill, with minor upgrades it may be worth it. Looking more at what I needed and/or wanted, it would have been the super mini mill 2, and at that price point, there are lots of other choices that I feel are better.

If you can live with 10 tool changer and the integrated coolant tank, $35k or so for the base mini mill isn't that bad of a price. I didn't think they had a 10k spindle upgrade on the base mini mill option before, but I could be wrong.

Have you considered a tapping arm? Depending on number of holes and pieces it may get mind-numbing, but may be a good stopgap for you.

mountie said:

Have you considered a tapping arm? Depending on number of holes and pieces it may get mind-numbing, but may be a good stopgap for you.

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Right now I am making most of them on the bed mill 6 minute cycle time to drill and profile the part but 5 manual tool changes I then have to fixture them back in the vise to run the mill in 2 axis mode so I can use the draw bar for the tapping head. I tried using the mill in 3 axis mode with the tapping head but it didn't work well.

I can't see a tapping arm being any faster than running the mill in 2 axis mode to position for each hole. I have 6 - 1/4-20 holes to tap & 1 - 5/16 -18 hole in each part and I make hundreds of them material is 6061 T6 .375" angle & some .375" flat bar .parts range in length from 14" to 2" in length.

I figure even a slow VMC would make the same parts in half the time with the holes tapped and not make near the mess.

It looks like you're an hour away from me or so. I'd highly recommend grabbing some of your parts and heading to the Selway down here in Wilsonville. Kyle, the applications guy, was a big help and very nice guy to deal with when I brought one of my problem parts in.

Also plan for $1000-1500 shipping and $1300-2000 rigging cost on top of the machine. Not to mention tooling. If you're buying a machine JUST to tap holes, I would look at other market options that are much less of an investment like a tapping arm. A Mill is for milling. A Drill/Tap machine is for FAST production.

When I started looking for a machine I felt the same way. I almost immediately took another hard look at what the machine was going to cost me monthly and what it was going to earn me monthly, and upped my budget a LOT. I have gone full circle, Mini Mill, Sharp 2416, VF-1, Mini Mill 2. The Haas VF's are on sale this month for a sweet price, a VF-1 is cheaper than a Mini Mill 2. I am going with the Mini 2 for the more realistic working envelope and 20 tool ATC. If I could physically fit the VF-1 in my shop I'd have the order placed for it. The Mini will be moved by pallet jack around the shop, gives me the tools I need and being an OEM with not that much production I have no problem running it slower.

droshi said:

I got a Brother S500X1 into my garage for not much more (considering the Phase Perfect and transformer etc). The main reason I discarded the Mini-Mill idea was the integrated coolant tank. Maybe if you'll always run dry it might not matter, but to me, I really like being able to remove that tank and really clean it out if I need to. Preventing the need to clean is usually best, so I have some fine filters bags now, but that was my main concern.

CAD/CAM, Fusion 360 has been working for me, there is now what I consider an excellent post for the Brother.

There's other options out there, but let the sales guys impress you with their quotes. For me, the deal came around at IMTS, so if you can't wait till next year, it's all up in the air on who will be cheapest, but I would pay a bit more to get what you want rather than what's $5k cheaper.

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How the heck did you get a S500X1 for a bit more than a Mini? I thought the Brothers started at $80K???

Gundog, I'm right here in Vancouver. I have 3 different size Haas machines you could take a look at, a TM1-P,a VF-2 and a VF-4SS. The latter 2 are likely more than your looking for and/or need. But it sounds like the TM1-P might just be up your alley. Let me know if you'd like to take a gander.

DethloffMfg said:

How the heck did you get a S500X1 for a bit more than a Mini? I thought the Brothers started at $80K???

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Priced like the Super Mini Mill 2...as mentioned, there were really good deals for IMTS. This is a 14 tool changer machine with no TSC, 10k spindle. Stepping up to the S700 is quite a jump, but has TSC capable and 21 tool changer I believe are the main differences.

Overall, I was talking to a sales guy, and he called me up right before IMTS and gave me the price, before that, it was significantly different.

Machinist John said:

Gundog, I'm right here in Vancouver. I have 3 different size Haas machines you could take a look at, a TM1-P,a VF-2 and a VF-4SS. The latter 2 are likely more than your looking for and/or need. But it sounds like the TM1-P might just be up your alley. Let me know if you'd like to take a gander.

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That would be great I would love to see your machines. I also looked at the TM1 with a tool changer but when I started adding in a tool changer it ran more money but I haven't ruled it out.

one upside is the low depreciation in Haas ,,, I looked for a year for a used vf2ss and every one I found was depreciated about 2k a year was all ... so why buy used when the cost of ownership is still about $166 a month for a new one ? so I just got a new one and in 10 years I well sell it for about 20K less.

even my 20 year old Fadal I`m getting ready to sell has only depreciated about $145 a month .... The cost of owner ship is really cheap if you take care of your machines and don`t run them into the ground ...

I have been looking for a clean mini mill for a couple years to do engraving and light second op work on and there used price is NUTS... I see a lot of 10 year old ones for like 5K under new price .

Why not buy two Bridgeport’s with tapmatics one for 1/4-20 and one for your 5/16-18. Floating a tap into a drilled hole is cake and the way your currently doing it is slow and time consuming. You don’t need the machine to position your work just do it by hand. I’d say you would see 300% improvement with that simple setup. To make things cheaper get two drill presses with tapmatics even less expensive and just as effective.

D.D.Machine said:

one upside is the low depreciation in Haas ,,, I looked for a year for a used vf2ss and every one I found was depreciated about 2k a year was all ... so why buy used when the cost of ownership is still about $166 a month for a new one ? so I just got a new one and in 10 years I well sell it for about 20K less.

even my 20 year old Fadal I`m getting ready to sell has only depreciated about $145 a month .... The cost of owner ship is really cheap if you take care of your machines and don`t run them into the ground ...

I have been looking for a clean mini mill for a couple years to do engraving and light second op work on and there used price is NUTS... I see a lot of 10 year old ones for like 5K under new price .

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That is exactly why I am looking at new plus I figure I may get some help from them in choosing the right machine when I show them what I make. I am self taught and have never worked for anyone as a machinist I learn as I go and need to make something new.

For the most part machine sales man are just that ( salesman ) You well get a lot better info asking on here about what machines you would need ,,

There is a lot of really smart guys on here that well help you get going down the right road, The main thing is getting a machine that well do your parts but not getting more machine than you need.

20 years ago I ordered a new Mori lathe and spent twice what I would have for a smaller Haas SL10 and to this day it has never ran a part that I could not have ran on a Haas just as fast.

I didn't start buying Haas tell about 5 years ago and well I had spent over 35 years doing mill work it has been great having the tons of info online about them, anything you well ever need to know about them is out there and easy to find, from repairing to programming its as close as Google.

gundog said:

Right now I am making most of them on the bed mill 6 minute cycle time to drill and profile the part but 5 manual tool changes

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I can't see a tapping arm being any faster than running the mill in 2 axis mode to position for each hole. I have 6 - 1/4-20 holes to tap & 1 - 5/16 -18 hole in each part

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You can run the tapping arm while the bed mill runs the first op, doubling your productivity.

mountie said:

You can run the tapping arm while the bed mill runs the first op, doubling your productivity.

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Bolt the tapping arm to the mill table, boom, single setup!

Good thinking
but the guy is running a bed mill … well there nice for one off parts there not a lot of fun for production work ,, next time your running a VMC open the doors and stand there you well soon see why he is looking into a closed machine … Its like being a fry cook with hot chips added.

Looking at the cost of ownership...

Have you ever looked at jobbing out your products? I know sometimes it can be a terrible experience, and it really depends where you are?

Before I could justify a CNC, I had a shop up the road do quite a few of my products for me. They were great to work with, so maybe I am spoiled in that regard. One product they used to make for me was a once a year 50pc run. Simple and quick job. I make them now and have a hard time matching the price that they charged me, and I am making them in house on my machines! A different part, they were about double what I could make it in house for.

Just something to consider before you dive into buying your own!