Coolant Recommendation for Idle Machine

Evening all. I am looking for recommendation for a coolant that can withstand being idle for 1-2 weeks at a time in my VF2.

From day 1 I have always ran aluminum and my MQL Accu-lube has been great for that. Recently though I have been getting requests for stainless and titanium, and I am just not comfortable running them without flood.

This isn't a full time gig for me or anything, I have a regular 9-5 and sometimes my machine will sit for a few weeks at a time.

Is there a coolant out there that will do what I want without too much maintenance?

Thanks in advance.

I use a Walter product- ValCool VP-Tech in my VF2 and my 2 Sharps. I routinely have one of the 3 machines sitting idle for 2 or more weeks- I'll run a job for a week or 2 on the Haas, then I'll be on the Sharp mill or lathe for a couple weeks, then back on the Haas, etc. No problem. I'm cutting Aluminum and Stainless though, no Ti.

If I was in you shoes, I would get a pail of Trim Sol and try it out. That's good for Ti and the rest too. Your VF2 isn't dumping a lot of oil into the sump anyway- it should be fine.

I won't give a specific recommendation, because there is a lot of good stuff out there.

There is also a lot of crap.. Straight soluble is going to go nasty on you, especially if it sits,
its a crap shoot if you are actually moving it constantly.

Buy a REPUTABLE coolant. Don't buy anything from any company that sells an anti-stink additive.
You know why they sell an anti-stink additive?? Because its going to STINK!!! And they know this.
If you can buy a bucket of floor wax and a case of toilet paper with your coolant... Don't buy it.

If you can't pick up the phone and get support... Don't buy it.. If you're having problems(STINK) and
you can't send in a sample for FREE for analysis.. DON'T buy it.

If your coolant is doing a lot of sitting time.. Aerating it is not the worst thing in the world..
Million ways to do that.. Fish tank stuff... Bubblers and power heads.. If your area of Cali is dry,
you might be able to go get a dirt cheap swamp cooler pump down at the hardware store and stick it on a timer...

If you had a Fadal, you could just unplug the standard 110V pump plug from the back of the machine and
plug into an extension cord with a timer on it.

My lathe sits for weeks on end. I run an air pump in it daily for a couple hours. I have it hooked to the lights so its running when I turn on the lights etc.... Believe it or not, I have 14 months on the same coolant and I have zero smell... I'll admit it is finally yellowing and I'll probably change it on that fact. I don't want it staining the paint....lol

Blasocut 2000 Universal - Check compatibility with your machine.

I read and read and read about coolant going rank over time here on PM. The biggest thing to do is prevention. Don't give backteria a reason to grow. Constant Aeration... Don't spit in your coolant.... don't dump soft drink in it... etc....keep the chips cleaned so they can't start a colony protected from the areation.

Hope this helps.

Thanks all, so the ideal key to keeping coolant from getting gross is agitation? There is no special chemical rating on an air or water circulation pump that I should look for?

I also read that it is important to keep chips from getting in your sump. Being that I use a lot of roughing end mills, it is tough to control those tiny chips. Any special filtration that you do to keep those small chips out of the sump?

CGornet said:

..Being that I use a lot of roughing end mills, it is tough to control those tiny chips. Any special filtration that you do to keep those small chips out of the sump?

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For what you are machining, you could switch to Crescutters for roughing- they will work just as good as your roughers but will make bigger chips.

The only thing I don't like them for is carbon steels. Corncobs work better there but for AL,Ti,SS Crescuts work great for roughing, especially in the work-hardening stuff.

Can't eliminate it completely- chips will find their way into the sump no matter what you do. Just got to periodically dig them out. I've got a wood-framed screen that sits on top of the coolant tank right under the drain on my VF2, so it collects most of the chips that get through the drain hole.

CGornet said:

Thanks all, so the ideal key to keeping coolant from getting gross is agitation? There is no special chemical rating on an air or water circulation pump that I should look for?

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Coolant goes rank becuase of the process when bacteria eats crap in your coolant. The breakdown process gives off gas or whatever it is and thats what you smell.

To stop the bacteria from even being present, don't introduce it... i.e. through spit(bacteria in your mouth)..... To stop it from growing you create an uninhabbitable environment.... Heavy ogygen concentration in the coolant.

I use this because I have extras floating around for agitating my anodizing line.

Amazon.com : Tetra 2675 Whisper Aquarium Air Pump AP3, up to 3-Gallon : Tetra Whisper Air Pump : Pet Supplies

I run oil in my Haas SMM. Motorex Ortho NF-X... the lightest weight they make.

I can punch the "Off" button and walk away for months -- no evaporation, no smell, and the surface finish when machining is far better than any soluble I've used. Oh... and tapping and roll tapping?... phenomenal.

Admittedly, I am not a production shop, but the ability to have a machine in my garage that requires zero coolant maintenance is priceless (for me).

fwiw...

PM

CGornet said:

Thanks all, so the ideal key to keeping coolant from getting gross is agitation?

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Yes and No... The main thing is don't ABUSE IT... Don't piss in it, don't drown possums in it,
don't spit your sunflower seeds in it... Just do your best to not add shit that isn't more coolant,
oils(even tapping oils *could* cause a problem), bleach, pine-sol etc.... I've even run into
problems sharing space with a wood worker.. When he was creating really fine sawdust that floated in the
air, it would get in the coolant and it would start stinking.

ANYTHING that some little bastard bacteria
could possibly think is food... And Bacteria are sneaky little bastards, they evolve FAST.. And them
f@#ers can eat anything... Ever leave a dirty bleach bucket kicking around for a few days??? It smells
like a dumpster fire... WHY? Some little bacteria bastard decided that bleach was yummy, and now he's
eating bleach and shitting, and you are smelling his shit... At the homestakes gold mine up in S. Dakota
(closed now).. They had a tank of bacteria that ate ARSENIC... F'n ARSENIC.. If I had some arsenic, I bet
I could also "evolve" a strain of bacteria that ate arsenic in less than a week, using nothing nothing
more than a couple of buckets on my back porch.

As far as agitation, its the whole Aerobic an Anaerobic bacteria thing... You need to treat your sump
like a fish tank.. Bacterial balance. Bacteria A eats Bacteria B's shit and vise versa. If you
aren't putting more oxygen into the fish tank/coolant, then the aerobic bacteria all die, and then there
is nobody there to eat the anaerobic bacteria's shit... And shit stinks.

Think about the difference between a stagnant puddle and a running stream.

I also read that it is important to keep chips from getting in your sump. Being that I use a lot of roughing end mills, it is tough to control those tiny chips. Any special filtration that you do to keep those small chips out of the sump?

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Chips in the tank happen. Shovel 'em out once in a while.. (like vacuming the gravel in a fish tank)
You also end up with tiny tiny tiny microscopic
fines in the coolant which can act as an abrasive. Occasionally you *should* pump all your coolant out, and
decant it (I think thats the right word). Just let it sit for 4 or 5 days.. It will let all the tiniest little
oil droplets that don't belong in there to float to the top, and the tiniest little gritty shit to sink
to the bottom. Suck the oils off the top and drain off all the coolant except for the last little tiny
bit at the bottom. That's the cheap way to do it... They make all kinds of fancy expensive contraptions
that do that stuff on the fly also.

If you have some well used coolant, put some in a clear bottle, put it up on top of the control and let
it sit for a few days... If there is grit at the bottom of the bottle and oil at the top, you have some
maintenance to do... (This is a do as I say, not as I DO moment).

Just think "Fish Tank" and you'll be fine. AND don't buy crap coolant.

So much good info here. Thanks all for the help. Really liked the tip about a pre-filter under the cabinet drain.

How necessary are skimmers? If I don't run my machine much, I really shouldn't have a lot of crap floating on the surface, correct?

And what the heck are you guys doing with your cnc's? Haha, dead animals, spit, piss, coke cans, geez. I treat my machine like a virgin princess. You guys are awesome.

Any other coolant recommendations for SS/Ti?

Once again, I appreciate the help.

countryboy1966 said:

To stop the bacteria from even being present, don't introduce it...

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You CAN'T stop it. Bacteria are EVERYWHERE, and any place there is food, bacteria will
be there. And like I said above, FOOD to bacteria is not the same as FOOD to us. They
will eat anything.

FISH TANK.. You can't make it sterile (sump or fish tank)... The best you can do is to keep
it stable by not introducing FOOD, and by not trying to KILL them off, because the poison you
use to kill them will be seen as food by a few of them... Then your balance goes to hell and
it stinks.

Just like a fish tank.. When you first set up a tank, you buy "starter" fish that you KNOW
are going to die.. You feed 'em, they shit.. Bacteria A eats the shit... Then bacteria A shits and
that kills your starter fish... Over time, other bacteria set up shop and start eating the
shit of Bacteria A.. And eventually somebody is eating everybody else's shit and you can go buy
some good fish, and they won't die.

over feed your fish, food goes to the bottom of the tank, some bacteria that like fish food are
having a party and shitting all over the place... Balance goes to hell, fish die.. In a sump,
you dump your Coke in there, some bacteria decide its party time, shit all over the place, and
then it stinks.

Bobw said:

You CAN'T stop it. Bacteria are EVERYWHERE, and any place there is food, bacteria will
be there. And like I said above, FOOD to bacteria is not the same as FOOD to us. They
will eat anything.

FISH TANK.. You can't make it sterile (sump or fish tank)... The best you can do is to keep
it stable by not introducing FOOD, and by not trying to KILL them off, because the poison you
use to kill them will be seen as food by a few of them... Then your balance goes to hell and
it stinks.

Just like a fish tank.. When you first set up a tank, you buy "starter" fish that you KNOW
are going to die.. You feed 'em, they shit.. Bacteria A eats the shit... Then bacteria A shits and
that kills your starter fish... Over time, other bacteria set up shop and start eating the
shit of Bacteria A.. And eventually somebody is eating everybody else's shit and you can go buy
some good fish, and they won't die.

over feed your fish, food goes to the bottom of the tank, some bacteria that like fish food are
having a party and shitting all over the place... Balance goes to hell, fish die.. In a sump,
you dump your Coke in there, some bacteria decide its party time, shit all over the place, and
then it stinks.

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Just like bad breath in the morning.....

After reading a previous coolant thread last spring and realizing I needed to do something, I ordered McMaster 2000K4 coolant reservoir deodorizer aka aquarium bubbler, 2165T11 oil skimmer and 2 ea 7001K58 programmable time switch. The skimmer runs 9am-9:30am. The bubbler runs 10am-4am i.e. stops a few hours before the skimmer to let the oil settle on top. OK so far - made it through a warm summer in the shop.

The coolant is Hangsterfers S-737. It typically sits for a week. It's a Fadal, and dumps a ton of way oil in the coolant. The enclosure has sagged a bit to where the pans on both sides have low spots below the drain, between that and the tank there's a lot of coolant surface area, we evaporated up to 5g a week this summer. I learned quick adding straight water results in rust pretty quick and so am still homing in on what ratio to mix when adding to keep it around 6%.

Toolbert said:

It's a Fadal, and dumps a ton of way oil in the coolant.

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If you are dumping a ton... You've got a leak.. Find it.. Alternatively, if
you aren't using any, you've got a clog or 20. Either way... Fix it, or you
aren't going to be happy.

3rd option. Hand lube it. I don't overly trust my lube systems (I know one is F'k'd) and
every 3 weeks or so, I pop off the covers and give 'em a hand job. They seem to like it.

1. What kind of water you mix your coolant with apparently affects how it smells. I have hangsterfer's charges that last multiple years, with the machine sitting idle months at a time. It has an oily film on top, but never smells. (I used to think my nose was broken, but the "stink" was described - I would know it, it is not going on.)
I use water from the deionized water machine at the grocery store. I think that helps.
(While it does NOT stink, it does leave a gooy residue - BUT - no sign of actual rust.)

2. Never, ever, ever, never, ever, add water direct to coolant tank. (Every coolant tech doc I've ever read says to never do this.) Instead, mix makeup coolant (which can be either lower or higher concentration) and then add that. OIL = oil in last - I've had several different coolant sales people tell me that. (Toolbert - mix a 5 gallon bucket of coolant at some minimum concentration and then add THAT. The min concentration should be speced by the coolant vendor. I think for hangsterfer's it's 3%.)

3. I recently bought an oil boss on recommendation of members here, and will see how that does for getting rid of the skin. Aeration is probably a good thing. NOT putting random stuff (spit, soda, urine, opposums, fish scales) in the coolant is surely a good thing.
I have a keller oil removal unit, and it consumes an awful lot of air and is apparently very slow - hopefully the oil boss will be better.

4. If you machine phenolic resin, or wood, or I presume carbon electrodes, there will be dust everywhere. Everywhere - inside of light bulbs, in the hinges of the break room refridgerator, under your toe nails. Capturing as much of this dust as possible, and filtering out as much of the rest as possible, is key.

I gotta look into this MQL technology. When I am running my 3/8" endmill at 16000 RPM in aluminum I am only thinking FLOOD, like torrential! That being said, your VF-2, I am thinking, is way oil so a skimmer on the coolant tank and an aerator will give you the best chance. I have tried all different brands of miscible coolant and none will hold up if it is left stagnant. Seen a shop run mineral oil based cutting fluid in mills and, though the parts are slippery as heck, the fluid definitely did not go rancid.

CGornet said:

From day 1 I have always ran aluminum and my MQL Accu-lube has been great for that. Recently though I have been getting requests for stainless and titanium, and I am just not comfortable running them without flood.

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If your MQL is working for aluminum, you can get it to work for stainless and Ti. IME aluminum is the worst when it comes to chip welding and BUE using endmills and facemills.

You'll want to pay closer attention to drilling operations. Use HSS/cobalt and keep the peck depth low and lube the tool when it retracts. Threadmill holes instead of tapping. Got airblast?

Your situation is the opposite of most. Most people start with flood and try to switch to MQL. You've already got MQL, so might as well try that first before filling the sump.

I switched to Trim Microsol 585XT some years ago and problem solved, this stuff sits idle in several manual machines where the coolant isnt used for weeks and never have smell. IF AND ONLY IF, the coolant concentrate is up! If it's lean, say only 1% brix(from a wash pale) then it will start to stink. We usually keep it between 5-7%.

you also need to keep it clean.... its the tramp oil( way lube, rust preventative off steel bar, etc) that usually is the issue. keep it clean and most of your issues go away. some people have used fish tank aerators to keep it aerated during idle times.

I talked with the local qualichem rep and he is going to send me a pail of XC230. He said it should hold up well to sitting as long as the sump is kept relatively free.

Also said that you can add concentrate straight to the sump now, which I probably won't do, but thought it interesting none the less.

The MQL works well. It is a dual nozzle accu-lube setup that I haven't had any of issues with in aluminum. I like it because it keeps maintenance and clean up down, but I give up a lot in cycle time when running drill ops. I really couldn't find a lot of people (or any at all honestly) running MQL with stainless and titanium though.