Damaged BT30 spindle. grrr - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Dude...you know they break, why cheap out?

    It's not like they are breaking from too much drawbar tension so as long as you don't machine too aggressively so the tool holder pulls out of the spindle you should be good.

    My go-to for pull studs is TJ Davies, on all my tool holders. The last time I bought the special ones for my Kitamura they were $13 from Western. I also always blue loctite my pull studs to keep coolant from getting past them.

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    I just ordered tj daves they were maybe $14 each so not bad price.

    They are holding up well right next to the maritool ones that I guess according to folks here are worse than I suspected?

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    I have broken pull studs on these spindles before. Even with no taper damage the spindle will soon go bad. Just get a replacement spindle in preparation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    Dude...you know they break, why cheap out?
    I'm not opposed to buying something worth it. Hence paying $37 per stud from JM.
    However, I have a couple ER11 holders, a few 6mm holders, some 1/4" holders, all of which have tooling that is SMALLER in diamter than the pull stud. Run a 1/4" endmill into a wall and it will break before the .275 diamter pull stud will break. I don't think that is being reckless.

    So really, I'm asking for recommendations for pull studs that will be in 1/4" to 3/8" max dia tools. 3/8 side lock, SK10 collet chucks.

    ANYTHING over 3/8 capability, ie SK16 collets, WILL have the expensive pull studs just to make sure.


    PS. I did send out my first destroyed spindle to be rebuilt. Waiting on evaluation on it. That will go on the shelf for the next crash 3 years from now.

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    i don't believe this thread one bit.
    30Taper spindles are magic pixie dust driven magic production perfection that only get better when in a Brother mill.

    isn't it against the PM bylaws to say anything negative about 30 tapers?

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  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkd View Post
    i don't believe this thread one bit.
    30Taper spindles are magic pixie dust driven magic production perfection that only get better when in a Brother mill.

    isn't it against the PM bylaws to say anything negative about 30 tapers?
    and you are helping how?

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  9. #107
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    Default Damaged BT30 spindle. grrr

    JM pull studs are $37 each because they got a patent on having the “longer thread”. This prevents the tool holder shank from swelling due to over-torquing the pull stud.

    BUT…

    Are JM pull studs made from some type of special steel, and heat treated to some special spec?

    Because the weak point of 30-taper studs is not the threaded section….but the smooth “neck” of the pull stud.

    It’s all in the type of steel and the heat treatment….

    ToolCat

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  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    JM pull studs are $37 each because they got a patent on having the “longer thread”. This prevents the tool holder shank from swelling due to over-torquing the pull stud.

    BUT…

    Are JM pull studs made from some type of special steel, and heat treated to some special spec?

    Because the weak point of 30-taper studs is not the threaded section….but the smooth “neck” of the pull stud.

    It’s all in the type of steel and the heat treatment….

    ToolCat
    Website says the below.
    I often wondered what the cost would be to make the #30 stud from a forged blank and how much additional strength that could/would potentially offer?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    Website says the below.
    I often wondered what the cost would be to make the #30 stud from a forged blank and how much additional strength that could/would potentially offer?
    That's a nice photo showing the difference between grippers/fingers and caged balls on pull stud design. Gripper on the left, caged balls on the right.

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    I've recently taken over a shop that runs about 20 brothers. They were all bought used. We're mostly using a random mix of tooling holders that came used with the machines or were bought from alibaba or techniks... Historically they've had to replace at least one spindle every 2-3 months. Part of the problem is they're trying to rough with 2" face mills.
    I checked a random sampling of the tool holders for runout... The best I've found is about .0002" out, some are as much as .003" out. The pull-studs we're using are also alibaba specials.

    I asked to throw out the holders that weren't running true, I was told that they're "good enough for what we do, we don't want to spend a lot on tooling so we can keep our margins good"

    Am I taking crazy pills? If we bought say 30k (CAD) worth of tool holders, and that even only cut down the number of spindle burnouts by 1 per year, it would justify the purchase in 3years just in savings on spindles wouldn't it? (spindles cost us 10K) Then there's also all the time we waste reprogramming parts to get better results just because we're trying to work with tools with .003" of runout. Seems like a no brainer?

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    Devin, if things are as you state, you may want to look for other opportunities. That mindset of management will just result in more and more headaches for you, as whatever shortcomings the shop has in performance will always be your fault, regardless of your unheeded recommendations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Devin, if things are as you state, you may want to look for other opportunities. That mindset of management will just result in more and more headaches for you, as whatever shortcomings the shop has in performance will always be your fault, regardless of your unheeded recommendations.
    I'm not really complaining, I'm just trying to think about how to make the case that running poor tooling costs more than it saves

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinJB View Post
    I've recently taken over a shop that runs about 20 brothers. They were all bought used. We're mostly using a random mix of tooling holders that came used with the machines or were bought from alibaba or techniks... Historically they've had to replace at least one spindle every 2-3 months. Part of the problem is they're trying to rough with 2" face mills.
    I checked a random sampling of the tool holders for runout... The best I've found is about .0002" out, some are as much as .003" out. The pull-studs we're using are also alibaba specials.

    I asked to throw out the holders that weren't running true, I was told that they're "good enough for what we do, we don't want to spend a lot on tooling so we can keep our margins good"

    Am I taking crazy pills? If we bought say 30k (CAD) worth of tool holders, and that even only cut down the number of spindle burnouts by 1 per year, it would justify the purchase in 3years just in savings on spindles wouldn't it? (spindles cost us 10K) Then there's also all the time we waste reprogramming parts to get better results just because we're trying to work with tools with .003" of runout. Seems like a no brainer?
    Alibaba pull studs on a 30 taper!? Wow thats got to be the dummest thing ive ever heard on this forum lol. Tooling from alibaba/aliexpress is usually complete junk. And even the strongest pullstuds you can possibly buy are barely strong enough for a 30 taper lol.

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    Perhaps the bad tool holders should just disappear into the trash? But then again that might not help, depending on the collets, care in swapping tools in collets, setups, etc. Any idea how many hours you're getting out of the spindles? Supposedly it should be around 25,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    Alibaba pull studs on a 30 taper!? Wow thats got to be the dummest thing ive ever heard on this forum lol. Tooling from alibaba/aliexpress is usually complete junk. And even the strongest pullstuds you can possibly buy are barely strong enough for a 30 taper lol.
    Especially if you're "roughing with 2" facemills".
    Depending upon what parts and material you make, you might want to also look at your methodology and rough with something very different....

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Perhaps the bad tool holders should just disappear into the trash? But then again that might not help, depending on the collets, care in swapping tools in collets, setups, etc. Any idea how many hours you're getting out of the spindles? Supposedly it should be around 25,000.
    substantially less than 25,000. And you're right, just throwing them away and replacing them won't help much. some training and process changes would have to happen first, otherwise new tooling will just get trashed.

    Its going to be a slow process making any improvements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinJB View Post
    substantially less than 25,000. And you're right, just throwing them away and replacing them won't help much. some training and process changes would have to happen first, otherwise new tooling will just get trashed.

    Its going to be a slow process making any improvements.
    So I know this guy that used to run a shop that was a significant part of a company. The company
    wasn't run well, and this individual got sick of the shit. Never being able to upgrade or improve.
    Losing jobs shoved down the shops throat. Improvements just couldn't happen, even though the effort
    was put forward.

    So this individual started their own shop, and somehow did/does work for the shop he and/or she ran
    previously. Occasionally this individual would meet the "New" person that was running the shop this
    week. And it was ALWAYS the same story.. "We're going to make this improvement, and that improvement,
    and this process is going to be improved and blah blah blah blah.."

    And then I laughed in their face.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    So I know this guy that used to run a shop that was a significant part of a company. The company
    wasn't run well, and this individual got sick of the shit. Never being able to upgrade or improve.
    Losing jobs shoved down the shops throat. Improvements just couldn't happen, even though the effort
    was put forward.

    So this individual started their own shop, and somehow did/does work for the shop he and/or she ran
    previously. Occasionally this individual would meet the "New" person that was running the shop this
    week. And it was ALWAYS the same story.. "We're going to make this improvement, and that improvement,
    and this process is going to be improved and blah blah blah blah.."

    And then I laughed in their face.

    Wait, are you saying the "individual" was YOU?!

    What a twist!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevinJB View Post
    I've recently taken over a shop that runs about 20 brothers. They were all bought used.
    I want to know where they found that many used Brothers.... But yeah, that's living life on the edge there. We'll pull some redneck stunts to save money, buying pullstuds from Alibaba is a bridge too far.

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    Assuming that you run the same job on multiple machines, set one up with a set of the best toolholders and one with a set of the worst toolholders. I would think the difference would soon be very evident in the quality and yield.

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