Decent Chinese machines - which?
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    Default Decent Chinese machines - which?

    Hi all

    I'm in the UK - Lincolnshire.

    I'm looking at importing a machine, with siemens 808d Advance 848 control. Small footprint.

    currently looking at something from the below list

    Jiangsu ShunJia Intelligent Technology CO.,LTD

    Alibaba Manufacturer Directory - Suppliers, Manufacturers, Exporters & Importers

    TAIAN YUZHUO MACHINERY CO., LTD (yzlathe)

    toptech/optimum


    I've looked at ajax in the uk, do you know who makes their machines? Same for syil. Seems that I I bought a new syil x7, however at £23.5+ vat and delivery for a lower spec than the above(28.2k!), which seem to fall in at about 17k delivered including vat/duty/delivery so over £10000 cheaper.

    has anyone got experience of the 'better' end of new Chinese machines?

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    Just FYI, discussion of hobby grade machines is prohibited on this forum. At $24K pounds sterling, the machines you're looking at may JUST fall outside of hobby grade, but that's at the moderator's discretion. Don't be surprised or upset if your thread gets locked with a terse message to "read the forum machinery discussion guidelines" (stickied at the top of the forum).

    If that happens, head over to CNC Zone DOT com and ask there.

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    Hi - its not for hobby use, its for light proto-type use/2op.

    the Machines aren't hobby, its 2 tonnes of steel! Just compact footprint.

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    I'm not familiar with any you mention here but hopefully you can find someone who is. My biggest worry would be support. Do they have people in your area that can help you out if needed or do you have to rely on a call to someone offshore. Yikes!

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    Ask yourself a couple questions who will work on it? Where will you get replacement parts? This is more important than saving $$ up front. If you can't get tech support or repairs it will become a boat anchor actually worse boat anchors are useful. It could be a great machine but without what I mentioned at some point it will be worthless. If you can get tech support and a repair then go for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gundog View Post
    Ask yourself a couple questions who will work on it? Where will you get replacement parts? This is more important than saving $$ up front. If you can't get tech support or repairs it will become a boat anchor actually worse boat anchors are useful. It could be a great machine but without what I mentioned at some point it will be worthless. If you can get tech support and a repair then go for it.
    I was thinking similar......
    Its kinda like buying "fresh" shrimp from the back of a truck in the middle of the U.S......It may be cheap....but there is no customer service when you are on the pot...

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    It’s Siemens Electronics, warranty on control/servo/motors for 3 years, mechanics are robust and I’m only looking at ones with 20+ years of trading history. Using proper components that are tried and tested.


    I looked at a haas mini mill, however to the same spec it’s over twice the price, just not worth it if it’s not flat out 9 hours a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankychops View Post
    It’s Siemens Electronics, warranty on control/servo/motors for 3 years, mechanics are robust and I’m only looking at ones with 20+ years of trading history. Using proper components that are tried and tested.


    I looked at a haas mini mill, however to the same spec it’s over twice the price, just not worth it if it’s not flat out 9 hours a day.

    Why do you think that is? Trust us man, there is no free lunch in this or any other industry. If you want to do good work it takes good equipment, get a used haas mini mill if you must but beware of a deal that is too good to be true. Do some searching around here, this site is littered with horror stories of good deals gone sour. Anyone can bolt siemens servos and motors to a lemon and give you a 3 year warranty on those components. Just be careful and talk to end users, don't talk to the guy who bought the machine, talk to the man running or trying to run it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankychops View Post
    ....
    I looked at a haas mini mill, however to the same spec it’s over twice the price, just not worth it if it’s not flat out 9 hours a day.
    If that the case I'd look more at outsourcing the work.
    There is so much more to a machine tool than the control attached to it.

    There are very good and world class machine tools built in China.
    Most or all of these are not exported since the home market eats them all so why deal with exporting, language/support problems and such.
    What most see coming out of here is bottom of the barrel so that leads to thinking that this is the status quo for capability.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankychops View Post
    Hi all

    I'm in the UK - Lincolnshire.

    I'm looking at importing a machine, with siemens 808d Advance 848 control. Small footprint.

    currently looking at something from the below list

    Jiangsu ShunJia Intelligent Technology CO.,LTD

    Alibaba Manufacturer Directory - Suppliers, Manufacturers, Exporters & Importers

    TAIAN YUZHUO MACHINERY CO., LTD (yzlathe)

    toptech/optimum


    I've looked at ajax in the uk, do you know who makes their machines? Same for syil. Seems that I I bought a new syil x7, however at £23.5+ vat and delivery for a lower spec than the above(28.2k!), which seem to fall in at about 17k delivered including vat/duty/delivery so over £10000 cheaper.

    has anyone got experience of the 'better' end of new Chinese machines?

    You couldn't pay me to buy one of those machines.
    Don't be desperate when looking to buy, take your time and buy something good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingbob View Post
    Why do you think that is? Trust us man, there is no free lunch in this or any other industry. If you want to do good work it takes good equipment, get a used haas mini mill if you must but beware of a deal that is too good to be true. Do some searching around here, this site is littered with horror stories of good deals gone sour. Anyone can bolt siemens servos and motors to a lemon and give you a 3 year warranty on those components. Just be careful and talk to end users, don't talk to the guy who bought the machine, talk to the man running or trying to run it.

    I'm not after a free lunch, its a chunk of change still. There's a few companies buying them, rebranding and selling on for another 50%.

    In the UK the used market for Haas isn't great, electronic support is very expensive and 'limited'. Hence buying from a trusted supplier with a well known/proven control.

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    ...and some wondered if alternate sources to china will be found....NOPE
    Silver lining of the Pandemic. Countries rethink China supply lines.
    Price is everything, and here is proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    If that the case I'd look more at outsourcing the work.
    There is so much more to a machine tool than the control attached to it.

    There are very good and world class machine tools built in China.
    Most or all of these are not exported since the home market eats them all so why deal with exporting, language/support problems and such.
    What most see coming out of here is bottom of the barrel so that leads to thinking that this is the status quo for capability.
    Bob
    Thanks for a sensible reply. I'm not scraping the bottom of the barrel, just going to source, not going for the cheapest. I can't outsource as its doing it myself allows me to modify and test/change quickly. Its also about a nice compact footprint.

    In the UK market, haas aren't seen as one of the best, just entry level.

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    Trust me, (almost) no one here has a vested interest in any machine tool company, nor do we really give a shit if your business thrives or fails. All we can give you is our experience. There are probably some very good Chinese machine tools; however, there are ten times as many absolute pieces of shit that are sold by shady, fly by night import companies. We have all seen people buy these thinking they are getting a great deal... then a couple months later there is a technical issue and the import company can't help and the MTB ha no customer support. Then they have the laborious process of figuring out Chinese ladder logic and components on their own. Judging by your questions, I surmise that you don't have much cnc machining experience. When they break, it sucks and it is expensive to fix them.

    I can not think of a single company that has a Chinese CNC machine that is currently making them money. Maybe G-Coder5 will step in. He has a large company in Mainland China... he imports all of his machine from the USA.

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    Haas themselves don't claim to be one of the best, they're a respectable machine at a fair price. One thing for sure is they are going to be much better than a sight unseen wang-chung POS from Alibaba. If a 30k vs 20k machine is deal breaker maybe you need to take a closer look at your business model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    ...and some wondered if alternate sources to china will be found....NOPE
    Silver lining of the Pandemic. Countries rethink China supply lines.
    Price is everything, and here is proof.
    What a thread!?! I think its a bit far fetched to think countries will rethink supply lines. Trump is just trying to find someone/thing to blame(as usual). I wish the UK was able to be a world class manufacturing country like it was until 40 years ago. Its never going to happen. Not everything made in china is junk, lots of it is world class, most of it inbetween. I'm after something 'decent'. if haas/swi didn't want to license every feature, or in the case of the mini mill, sell it with a 4k spindle i'd buy one at the entry point. If I had the money I'd buy the best German made machine I could. I dont and that's the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankychops View Post
    I'm not after a free lunch, its a chunk of change still. There's a few companies buying them, rebranding and selling on for another 50%.......
    Is 50% excessive? Those companies earn the markup by being the support organization for the builder. Setting the machine up. Training you to program and set it up. Servicing through the warranty period. All that adds up plus they want to make a profit too.

    Is 50% excessive? Might be. Might also be an indicator of how much time they have found these low grade machines will eat up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Haas themselves don't claim to be one of the best, they're a respectable machine at a fair price. One thing for sure is they are going to be much better than a sight unseen wang-chung POS from Alibaba. If a 30k vs 20k machine is deal breaker maybe you need to take a closer look at your business model.
    for the right spec, its 43% more. for the use the machine will have, based on a sensible business model i'm spending the right amount.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G00 Proto View Post
    ....
    I can not think of a single company that has a Chinese CNC machine that is currently making them money. Maybe G-Coder5 will step in. He has a large company in Mainland China... he imports all of his machine from the USA.
    Yes it would be nice to know how and what the fighter aircraft , submarines and such are built on where they are no slouch.
    Along with things like automobiles.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Is 50% excessive? Those companies earn the markup by being the support organization for the builder. Setting the machine up. Training you to program and set it up. Servicing through the warranty period. All that adds up plus they want to make a profit too.

    Is 50% excessive. Might be. Might also be an indicator of how much time they have found these low grade machines will eat up.
    I'm not saying it is. I do not need training to use the siemens controls, the better suppliers sell them good to go, tested. sure i'll spend a day or two going over it all though.


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