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  1. #61
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    Is this job a one shot deal or is it continuing?

    Tom

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    100k parts, not sure if it will continue after that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Not ISO certified..................so it might not work for you..........................













    ......................................
    CRAP! You beat me to it Dave. I was going to use your pics I have saved and everything!

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    My thought is we just purchased a haas ST15 with a parts catcher. Thinking I can use the omniturn type setup for the parts feeder but use a 3 gang tool holder and have the following: part feeder, carbide drill, form tap

    The lathe has an auto door so I could have it programmed to open when the magazine is empty.
    Omniturn wont have rigid tapping and is kinda light so constant vibration will cause the parts loader to put marks on the copper parts.
    The haas lathe might have rigid tap but it aint going to be cheap.

    going with manual the other problem you might have is its 100k parts, thats alot of parts your not going to find anyone to run them all the way through, even women who are probably the best boring ass jobs workers out there. but even then there going to wear out.

    Id find a way to load them automatically on a vmc or plan on rotating a few machinist every 4 hours.
    also a problem with auto loading is Jams its going to happen regardless, especially with the vibration/movements cncs give off.

    the idea bob had and you making the urethane back jaw is probably the best. I had some jaws covered in in urethane for jobs similar to what bob mentioned its works pretty well. you just need a good harder urethane that isn't to porous so it doesn't catch chips.
    also on urathane your going have have to put a slight taper in it maybe .005 bigger at bottom(will have to test it to see how it clamps in the jaws as you may need more) to it sucks the parts down and holds the parts down against the locating face.
    you may have to put a teflon protector of some sort in the edge of the locator jaw so you dont scratch the parts when loading. even with collets you would have to do that.
    one other thing is you'll need to find a way to flush clean the jaws between loading. to keep chips out of the parts. maybe drill a hole cross ways in the jaws then put some holes in various places where the parts locate with low pressure running coolant. simple to do and will reduce the scrap rate a ton as well as not blowing chips from one vise to another.
    the typical loading on a face cut to a 3/8 bore might not be ideal as far as holding chips. running a 3/16 dowel pin in the side of the jaw for a (length) stop would keep chips to a minimum. have everything below the pic relived for chips to drop.


    then you just have to worry about employees not getting bored after 3000 parts.

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    My experience says that the best application is a dial table and a feeder bowl. Labor is almost non existent. A properly designed feeder bowl will have minimum orientation problems. The nests are usually simple and identical. There is no tool changing so that time is saved. The drilling is most likely the longest time consumer so multiple drill heads can be used

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    My experience says that the best application is a dial table and a feeder bowl. Labor is almost non existent. A properly designed feeder bowl will have minimum orientation problems. The nests are usually simple and identical. There is no tool changing so that time is saved. The drilling is most likely the longest time consumer so multiple drill heads can be used

    Tom
    Like a dillon reloader brass feeder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    My experience says that the best application is a dial table and a feeder bowl. Labor is almost non existent. A properly designed feeder bowl will have minimum orientation problems. The nests are usually simple and identical. There is no tool changing so that time is saved. The drilling is most likely the longest time consumer so multiple drill heads can be used

    Tom
    Sounds not robust at all and very time consuming and expensive to setup.



    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    dillon-precision-xl650-c-case-feeder-dies.jpg

    kk.jpg

    Just have to find away to hang it above the table, then you could make the program to stop and load each vise. possibility

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    I do agree with you there with the exception of the robot brand. We use fanucmate here over the Universal robots. I know cobots are all the rage but they are so dang expensive compared to fanucmates and way less capable.
    Wait... how much are Fanucmates?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Wait... how much are Fanucmates?
    refurbished $15,000-18,000 with the controller. New, still less than cobot at $25000-30,000 depending on options.

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    A few comments about another aspect of this monster job.

    From the start I would set up three or four tool "sets" (drill-tap what have you) in different length holders. I don't know about others, but I wouldn't want my machine to run over the very same inch or two of screw and rail/ways 100,000-200,000 times. I'd be certain to make sure there are tool height measurement changes that go far beyond a 100 thou which you might get from random non-thinking replacement tool change setting. Different length tool setups would do this.

    You could program the next tool set using a parts counting macro or any number of ways. At least there will be a tool change within each working fixture set up, so that will keep the screw and nut lubricated and rolling on different areas of ball and track.

    I have a job where I'm drilling up to a few thousand #35 holes with a very short, quick Z stroke. Maybe 0.200". I start the drill routine at a very high initial plain of just several inches from machine Z0. Then every once in awhile I'll G98 the drill routine for a hole, either because of part details or just because. That of course sends the head up for a run to stretch it's legs and hopefully pick up some lube and rearrange the balls on the way.

    I realize this may sound totally silly or crazy to some, but every machine out on my shop floor was bought with money out of my own pocket, and many also ground up rebuilt by me. So I worry a little about repetitive wear situations. Especially situations that are so easily rectified, and may in some small way add time to the useful life of my machines.

    Dave

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    Makes sense to me.

    I will say that the wife and I have been thinking this project over and we both think that hiring another robot is going to be the way to go and stick it on the new haas lathe. Im going to explore the Nachi MZ07L robot this time instead of the fanucmate. Ill let everyone know what the price is when I order it.

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    Hardinge/Omniturn GT27 with a 5c collet closer and some sort of load system shouldn't be hard to rig up. Load slug, push against spring loaded collet stop for length, drill and tap, open collet, slug falls in whatever part catcher you can rig up. Assuming you can automate the loading, cycle time sub 30 seconds, and operator can just feed blanks into the chute for loading.

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    I came to post this, but Teachme has the same idea.


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    I found several like this. I don't like the idea of having to hack up a new machine for a part.

    I've given it a ton of thought for a setup like this though.

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    DO the math on spindle off time.

    I don't think you want to run these with any fixture that you change parts in the machine

    My first instinct was a ton of parts on the table, but if there is any kind of an issue, you lose a ton of parts and you never saved a lot of time anyway

    My thoughts:

    fixture much like Dave's, only it comes out of the machine

    2 vises, 4 fixtures, 10 parts in each fixture, 2 fixtures in machine at any one time.

    Design the fixture so no chips get in the middle, like maybe the back jaw side is T shaped, overlapping both the front jaw side of fixture and the actual back jaw. No gaps

    Or maybe a oversized piece of rubber with 10 undersized 3/8 holes punched in it.

    Open door, quick blow, place refilled fixtures on the vise, open vise, remove finished parts fixture, insert refilled fixtures, close door, push button. Sub 30 seconds.

    Operator should be able to change parts in less than 2 minutes[while the spindle is running], so your total non spindle time is maybe a second a part.

    20000 seconds is over 5 hours, so it matters.

    It is all how fast your spindle/rapids/toolchange are whether the operator can swap the parts out without killing himself[key to keeping operator showing up in the morning]
    but I think it would be a pretty fast machine to get these done in less than 10 seconds a piece, so I think you are good there

    If you had 4 fixtures on the machine it would increase part change time but only reduce number of door openings 50 percent, so incrementally the return gets smaller and smaller

    The balance really needs to be enough that the operator can reload the fixtures before the machine is done, and maybe take a sip of coffee or text his girlfriend a dick pick or whatever kids these days do..........

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    the down spindle time is an issue and these parts are a terrible fit for a mill be it horizontal or vertical. That said... I have 2 options for a lathe type setup

    1) robot, I got a quote on the robot already, About the cost of 1 employees salary for the year and can run 3 shifts for many years to come.
    2) omniturn type feeder. I did have them quote out a machine for this part, just waiting to hear back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    DO the math on spindle off time.

    I don't think you want to run these with any fixture that you change parts in the machine

    My first instinct was a ton of parts on the table, but if there is any kind of an issue, you lose a ton of parts and you never saved a lot of time anyway

    My thoughts:

    fixture much like Dave's, only it comes out of the machine

    2 vises, 4 fixtures, 10 parts in each fixture, 2 fixtures in machine at any one time.

    Design the fixture so no chips get in the middle, like maybe the back jaw side is T shaped, overlapping both the front jaw side of fixture and the actual back jaw. No gaps

    Or maybe a oversized piece of rubber with 10 undersized 3/8 holes punched in it.

    Open door, quick blow, place refilled fixtures on the vise, open vise, remove finished parts fixture, insert refilled fixtures, close door, push button. Sub 30 seconds.

    Operator should be able to change parts in less than 2 minutes, so your total non spindle time is maybe a second a part.

    20000 seconds is over 5 hours, so it matters.

    It is all how fast your spindle/rapids/toolchange are whether the operator can swap the parts out without killing himself[key to keeping operator showing up in the morning]
    but I think it would be a pretty fast machine to get these done in less than 10 seconds a piece, so I think you are good there

    If you had 4 fixtures on the machine it would increase part change time but only reduce number of door openings 50 percent, so incrementally the return gets smaller and smaller

    The balance really needs to be enough that the operator can reload the fixtures before the machine is done, and maybe take a sip of coffee or text his girlfriend a dick pick or whatever kids these days do..........
    Ass-u-ming operator is never going to miss a beat or bathroom break...

    I know that is the goal - maximum spindle on time. I think swapping fixtures is more suited to a lower volume, but still try and get more spindle on time. I've done the fixture swap(s) before and it gets old fast. And that was more like 2-4 minutes a part, not 30 sec!

    "The balance really needs to be enough that the operator can reload the fixtures before the machine is done, and maybe take a sip of coffee or text his girlfriend a dick pick or whatever kids these days do....."

    That is ^ probably more important than raw speed IMO. If the operator is just finishing his unload-load cyle, and the machine finishes at the same time, there is no downtime. I'm not advocating anyone should pay a lazy ass to take breaks all day, but we are people that need rest, bathroom breaks, lunch break...

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    Swapping fixtures out is just too time consuming. We did an estimated time study and its just too much for a human...we are in the USA not india. Hell China would automate this.

    There is an opportunity for more parts like this to the tune of 100,000+ parts per month. Id rather invest the time and money into something more automated. Robot sounds like its going to be the winner unless that omniturn is cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Ass-u-ming operator is never going to miss a beat or bathroom break...

    I know that is the goal - maximum spindle on time. I think swapping fixtures is more suited to a lower volume, but still try and get more spindle on time. I've done the fixture swap(s) before and it gets old fast. And that was more like 2-4 minutes a part, not 30 sec!

    "The balance really needs to be enough that the operator can reload the fixtures before the machine is done, and maybe take a sip of coffee or text his girlfriend a dick pick or whatever kids these days do....."

    That is ^ probably more important than raw speed IMO. If the operator is just finishing his unload-load cyle, and the machine finishes at the same time, there is no downtime. I'm not advocating anyone should pay a lazy ass to take breaks all day, but we are people that need rest, bathroom breaks, lunch break...
    20 parts per door cycle, so do the math however you see fit.

    if it takes 4 minutes to change a 2 pound fixture out of a machine then you are doing something wrong.

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