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  1. #81
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    Depending on how many you can fit on a 3 axis vmc, a pallet changer could be viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    Swapping fixtures out is just too time consuming. We did an estimated time study and its just too much for a human...we are in the USA not india. Hell China would automate this.

    There is an opportunity for more parts like this to the tune of 100,000+ parts per month. Id rather invest the time and money into something more automated. Robot sounds like its going to be the winner unless that omniturn is cheap.
    What is your total cycle time with your plan?

    You are confusing me with considering a collet fixture, huge time

    if you take 20 seconds per part total cycle, this is nearly 120 hours of work in a month.

    turning or vmc/hmc dead time will kill you, even if it is a robot in front of the machine

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    What is your total cycle time with your plan?

    You are confusing me with considering a collet fixture, huge time

    if you take 20 seconds per part total cycle, this is nearly 120 hours of work in a month.

    turning or vmc/hmc dead time will kill you, even if it is a robot in front of the machine


    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    20 parts per door cycle, so do the math however you see fit.

    if it takes 4 minutes to change a 2 pound fixture out of a machine then you are doing something wrong.


    Wow chill out man!

    I never said it would take 4 minutes to change out a fixture, what I said is I have done the fixture swapping when it only takes a couple/few minutes per cycle and it gets old fast.
    OP is welcome to fixture or collet or whatever he wants to do

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I've done the fixture swap(s) before and it gets old fast. And that was more like 2-4 minutes a part, not 30 sec!
    It's kind of exactly what you said.

    Of course the OP can and will do as he pleases, he asked for opinions, I gave mine

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    That omniturn setup has got to be the best cycle time solution with an auto reverse tapping head.
    Flexible for other small parts too.
    Not sure about the rocket launcher part eject....i forsee damage being an issue...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    That omniturn setup has got to be the best cycle time solution with an auto reverse tapping head.
    Flexible for other small parts too.
    Not sure about the rocket launcher part eject....i forsee damage being an issue...
    Elon Musk would be proud of that ejector.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    There is an opportunity for more parts like this to the tune of 100,000+ parts per month. Id rather invest the time and money into something more automated. Robot sounds like its going to be the winner unless that omniturn is cheap.
    If you back up a bit further - why are you working with these 2" slugs and not from bar stock? 100k a month, and I would be asking the customer for the ability to add a bit more value + get the intrinsic automation simplicity of a lathe.

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    What you cant see is the part up to the point of what I have it. They make it out of coil copper rod and head, roll knurl, roll thread, and other features using the most archaic amazing machines that you probably have never seen. All they need is a hole and roll formed tap in the area that their mid 1900's machines cant do.

    They have near zero scrap with these parts because of the way they are made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    What you cant see is the part up to the point of what I have it. They make it out of coil copper rod and head, roll knurl, roll thread, and other features using the most archaic amazing machines that you probably have never seen. All they need is a hole and roll formed tap in the area that their mid 1900's machines cant do.

    They have near zero scrap with these parts because of the way they are made.
    I have a shop less than a mile from me with exactly those kinds of machines.
    There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING with a computer brain offered today that can come close to a small fraction of what those machines can do!
    Not in quality, consistency, quantity or reliability!

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    What you cant see is the part up to the point of what I have it. They make it out of coil copper rod and head, roll knurl, roll thread, and other features using the most archaic amazing machines that you probably have never seen. All they need is a hole and roll formed tap in the area that their mid 1900's machines cant do.

    They have near zero scrap with these parts because of the way they are made.
    Sounds like your referring to a cold header machine

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmccull166 View Post
    Sounds like your referring to a cold header machine
    Among many other machines

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by as9100d View Post
    What you cant see is the part up to the point of what I have it. They make it out of coil copper rod and head, roll knurl, roll thread, and other features using the most archaic amazing machines that you probably have never seen. All they need is a hole and roll formed tap in the area that their mid 1900's machines cant do.

    They have near zero scrap with these parts because of the way they are made.
    Fun



    Occurs to me that with all that rolling and heading and whatnot, you might want to get a couple hundred to play with to see how they act when drilling and tapping

    Copper is not fun when it is pure and untouched

    Just thinking that small percentages in feedrate will affect your bottom line, and I hate explaining loss of customers parts from broken taps etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Fun



    Occurs to me that with all that rolling and heading and whatnot, you might want to get a couple hundred to play with to see how they act when drilling and tapping

    Copper is not fun when it is pure and untouched

    Just thinking that small percentages in feedrate will affect your bottom line, and I hate explaining loss of customers parts from broken taps etc
    This is a good call.
    Coolant make and concentration makes a big difference as this stuff can be super sticky for threading.
    That said - it sounds like the process before you is going to work harden it - so hopefully the process is bang-on consistent so you get minimal variability to material condition...

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    Straight cutting oil in the Omni Turn?........................what grade of copper? If'n they're cold workn' it, it's more than likely a 110 or somthin' nice and soft............"fun" stuff to machine.............but not horrible.

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    I'd almost semi automate it. bowl feeder with an air cylinder clamp in a slot.

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    We did a job facing off and chamfering some steel slugs a year or so ago. just 15,000 pcs. if we had 100K I would have added a magazine and a cylinder for feeding the parts in automatically. For your copper parts I might make 2 magazines load one while the other is being run.
    YouTube Skip to 3 minutes if you are short on time.
    The old Hardinge/Omniturn conversions were fine with cutting oil, I assume the new GT75s are also. My 2 converted machines with a total of 50 years use have never seen coolant.
    Last edited by FredC; 02-27-2020 at 08:47 AM. Reason: added thought

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  23. #97
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    A GT27 would be a lot nicer machine than the Omni Turn.............................

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    I do 2 jobs in copper

    Machine was on and empty today so I dry ran one whole program and then a relevant part of one

    the whole program has 5 tool changes[2 drills, 2 taps, countersink] 8 holes
    my machine has a slow toolchanger
    we only run 25-50 of these once a year or so, thus it is totally not optimized, very slow spindle speeds to avoid breaking a drill or tap

    the whole program without opening the door is 3:41, 27+ seconds per hole, drilled, countersunk, tapped

    just the single size, 6 holes so losing 2 tool changes and some traverses, 22.5 seconds per hole all 3 ops. Again not opening the door

    now I live in 6061/6063, and that same operation, optimized in 6063 is 6.5 seconds per hole for 24 holes including tool changes for all 3 ops.

    my tool change is like 6 seconds, and again does not include part change

    Now if I ran copper all day, I am pretty sure I could get that time down to somewhere in between the 22.5 and the 6.5

    Looking at that video of the omniturn, sure the part change is quick, but the rest of it looks pokey as hell.

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    Exactly my thoughts on the rest of the system.

    6 axis robot will be the way to go I think. No reply on pricing from omniturn yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Now if I ran copper all day, I am pretty sure I could get that time down to somewhere in between the 22.5 and the 6.5
    So...............14-15 seconds per hole? Just machine time? No load/unload? Say 14.5 seconds x 20k/month=80 hrs and some change. That 2 full NONSTOP shifts. How much time to load and unload in a VMC/fixture set up or a robot loading a single part into a turning center? A bot ain't gonna keep up with the load unload of that Omni Turn vid....................Bot has to wait for the door to open............move in to the machine.................grab/open collet...........swap part/clamp........move out of the machine..............close the door. How much time would that be? Another 14-15 seconds? More? Less?......................Then your up to 160 hrs at a minimum...............Gonna run lights out? 2nd shift?


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