Dialing tools in turret.

So, I'm finding out trying to set up a turret to drill anything on center and on size is a little more fun than I thought.
What are you all using for indicator to make this quicker and easier?

thanks

If it is a slant the easiest I have found, without a tool eye, if you have NO IDEA where you are is to put an edge finder (think mill style) in your spindle. If you are able to reach either side of it in X then touch your holder off with a dowel pin or solid rod on each X side and get the centre. You might not quite be dead on yet but then you can put your tool in and a sacrificial part and slowly start drilling manually in a few mm's.
Then retract and measure the hole size and have a look at the centre point (especially if it is an inserted drill) and comp as needed.

This of course will work if your turret is square to your spindle, if not you are going to have to sort that out first because that could leave you scratching your head all day long with fouling boring bars/drills.

I use a Mighty Mag base to attach an indicator to the face of the spindle and put a piece of 1" stock in the I.D. pocket I'm trying to get on center. That way I can rotate the indicator around the stock and get within around 0.001 of being on center. The reasoning behind the 1" stock is all my I.D. pockets are 1" and I can tell whether I need to run the screws in from the bottom or the top to adjust any up and down issues I have.

As far as drilling on size, who's sharpening your drills?

Pretty hard to drill on size when the holder is a few thou of center.
People sharpen drills for cnc's? if its less than 1/2" it goes in the scrap bin when its done...

As to mag bases, no, they're useless for dialing anything horizontally.
I do have tool setter.
I'll see how much the haimer Centro is...
I want to be able to dial it concentric to the spindle, but also parallel to Z.

Get a coaxial indicator, a regular test indicator will sag and you will be off center.

Richard King demonstrating indicator sag. - YouTube

This is what I use. It's neither pretty nor particularly easy to use (have to stick your head up underneath it to read the dial as you rotate it), but it doesn't sag like an indicator arm. Just clamp it in the chuck and go.

gregormarwick said:

This is what I use. It's neither pretty nor particularly easy to use (have to stick your head up underneath it to read the dial as you rotate it), but it doesn't sag like an indicator arm. Just clamp it in the chuck and go.

Click to expand...

Thanks! I'm going to steal that idea.

As for the head, well a small mirror is a pretty priceless piece of tooling. I have an old VW beetle's side mirror on top of my toolbox.

Blake co-ax all day long.. fastest way to get on center. And with a Blake you will prob be within a few tenths. The Chinese cheap ass ones. maybe a .001 on a good day, due to play.

To keep parallel to Z use only good holders that will follow the tool holder bore . . . if this is not good for you then align your turret.

SND said:

Pretty hard to drill on size when the holder is a few thou of center.
People sharpen drills for cnc's? if its less than 1/2" it goes in the scrap bin when its done...

As to mag bases, no, they're useless for dialing anything horizontally.
I do have tool setter.
I'll see how much the haimer Centro is...
I want to be able to dial it concentric to the spindle, but also parallel to Z.

Click to expand...

I posted about sag before this posted. I would love to have a Centro just for dialing in turret pockets. I had one quoted to me about 6 months ago, and it was over $500(over $600 with a couple of tips). I'm going to use my old co-ax with a stub tip for a while longer.

SND said:

People sharpen drills for cnc's? if its less than 1/2" it goes in the scrap bin when its done...

Click to expand...

We run a lot of solid carbide thru-coolant drills, so I don't really have that luxury.

pmack said:

Get a coaxial indicator, a regular test indicator will sag and you will be off center.

Richard King demonstrating indicator sag. - YouTube

Click to expand...

That was educational. Of course I had to go try it. I would not have believed I'd get 0.001 sag just from flipping it upside down.

I use a 1" shank ER20 collet chuck to mount the indicator in the spindle, then just sweep in the I.D. tool block.

Once it's set, it shouldn't change unless you remove the tool block.

Some sag is inevitable as any bar or beam fixed on one end and pointing out to the horizon will sag “something” on the unsupported end, but it’s not a show stopper.

Using a rig I haven’t tested I’ll balance the X (horizon) and Y (plumb) first. The Y will be off as weight, spring pressure and gravity are my enemy. So which way is Y off after I trust my X is set to zero-zero?

Since (gravity force) is pulling my rig towards the floor if I’m in a bore my bottom reading should be plus (something) and the top should be minus (the same something). If I’m measuring the outside of a round (like a pin) then it’s the reverse and the top is plus (something) and the bottom minus (the same something).

Since it's a lathe the Z check would be fairly easy using a bar in the chuck with your rig. Check it close to the chuck and then check with the bar pulled out 6 or 8". the sag will be worse so the Y balance will have to be resolved again but the X should be still balanced (may be on one or the other side of the "0" line depending on strength of the rig and spring pressure pushing against the rig.

Good luck,
Matt

SND said:

So, I'm finding out trying to set up a turret to drill anything on center and on size is a little more fun than I thought.
What are you all using for indicator to make this quicker and easier?

thanks

Click to expand...

Floating Reamer Holders.

Y'all can fight perfection on lathe turrets/tool blocks, I choose to work within the limitations.


-----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I took a bit of a closer look today and realized adjusting a bit on X is all I got to play with, they're keyed in real tight so I guess that takes care of the axial bit.
It does have a tool setter, but I'll see about doing a short riding bar to hold a test indicator for now to sweep the inside of a few ER holders and hopefully leave those there for most of what I do.

I did buy a floating tap holder, the techniks micro-float thing, and I do have a brand new kennametal floating reamer holder I had bought a few years ago and never used yet... they do ok on lathes I take it? I thought it was more a mill thing but I suppose it'll line up either way.

This thing makes me feel like I'm relearning machining all over again, I'm not sure how much I can push it, definitely not as hard as I thought when it comes to parting... but now I know how to work my way out of the E-stop in the cut scenario

Anyway, best get back to it, 1000hrs of work booked and about 8 weeks to do it... can't wait for the Hardinge Flex-C system to arrive.

SND said:

I took a bit of a closer look today and realized adjusting a bit on X is all I got to play with, they're keyed in real tight so I guess that takes care of the axial bit.
It does have a tool setter, but I'll see about doing a short riding bar to hold a test indicator for now to sweep the inside of a few ER holders and hopefully leave those there for most of what I do.

Click to expand...

Couple things to mention if your tool blocks are a little out of square, and you are holding the drills in a collet.

I will setup the drill in the collet, and measure a rough length of stickout. Sometimes I hang the drills out a little for clearance if the adjacent tool is also long, and I want to keep it away from the chuck. Once I know where the drill point will be, I will swap out the drill for a gage pin in the collet chuck, then indicate the gage pin to double check the X geometry offset at the drill point.

On insert drills the flats orient the inserts or spade bit to the X axis. On twist drills in a collet, I get down and try to eyeball the cutting edges so they are in line with the X axis.

If everything is perfect, is doesn't matter- but if there is some alignment error in the Z axis, getting the drill point on center and pulling the chip evenly from both flutes goes a long way to drilling on size.

SND said:

I took a bit of a closer look today and realized adjusting a bit on X is all I got to play with, they're keyed in real tight so I guess that takes care of the axial bit.

Click to expand...

I thought you were getting a Brand spankin' new Lathe, no?

I'm going against the trend here, I dial Tool pockets in often. IMO your Turret should be damn near perfect at least initially. Meaning that if you rapid to XY zero it better be within -.0005" every time. Index 180º and do it again and it damn well better be that close, all day!! Again, I will reiterate that I think it should be like that at least once, initially. Over time, that's up to you. Some guys do it Semi Annually or less, I do it about 4x a Year (assuming no crash/bang). There isn't much to it, just work your way out from the basic Mechanics of the Machine. So, First; Headstock rotation, Second; Turret Parallel to Z, Third; Turret Perpendicular to X. All Three done with an Indicator, easy to verify. Then move on to Turret rotation, 100% Inspection on Toolholder for Symmetry, Hole for Roundness and Straightness. I put one at 0º and one at 180º, and start checking. I bore soft jaws for a ER32-40 Collet Chuck and hold a Blake Coaxial Indicator in the spindle, (always checking my own work as I go). I program rapid moves to XY zero and index 180º and do it again. IF it's out then it needs to be adjusted, sometimes I get away with using small taps, and big Hammer sometimes I use a big Hammer and Big taps, sometimes I need to loosen the bolts holding the Hirth together, sometimes I need to remove the taper pins and pound the rotation of the Turret back to what I want.

NOTE; we do some BIG stuff and we do some tiny parts, like 1" would be biggie. They are Medical parts so not just Bushings and Screws. Small Drills and Taps cannot deal with off center Toolholders. Even the Floating holders have to have a little bid=t of girth to the Tool, before the Float is working. .0312" Drill isn't going to change because of a Floating holder, is just going to break. Again all my opinion. But I hate chasing part dimensions around for this and that reason, almost as bad as I hate losing my 3/16" hex wrench.

Robert

Drilling on a lathe - Alighment, alignment, alignment...

This is where it pays to know how to use your indicator to "inspect" the machine/turret/holders.

1st - Put a mag-base indicator setup on your chuck. Mount the magnet on the face of the chuck, and bend the indicator around, so that the indicator stylus/tip is touching the OD of the chuck at 12 o'clock. Zero the indicator.

Rotate the chuck 180* so the indicator is now at 6 o'clock. Take not of how much the needle has moved. Now you understand indicator sag on a horizontal application. This is going to be critical if you're trying to dial in toolholders in the "imaginary" Y-axis.

If you have a 30* slant-bed lathe, then repeat the test, but this time with the indicator at 2 o'clock & 8 o'clock to match the 30* slant. We'll come back to sweeping the tool later...



2nd - Make sure the turret is parallel to the Z-axis ways. This is pretty easy - put an indicator on the OD of the turret body, and jog the machine in Z. If this is out more than .0005-.0015 then you'll have to loosen the bolts holding the turret body onto the X-axis cross-slide, and rotate the turret body until you get it straight.


3rd - Make sure that the turret is in radial alignment - the tool-pockets are parallel to the X axis. Find a tool-station with an empty pocket, and call up that tool-station. Put your indicator tip on the bottom of that tool-pocket, and then jog the machine in X. If this is out, you'll have to pull the front cover of the turret off, remove the taper-pins, loosen the bolts holding the turret, and rotate the turret until you bring the tool-pocket surface into alignment with X. This actually isn't a bad job. If you discover that the taper pins are missing when you remover the front-cover, then it's even better. Look inside the electrical cabinet to see if the taper pins are being stored there. If so, loosen the turret bolts, drive the taper pins in. Check the alignment. If it's straight, snug the turret bolts, remove the taper pins and re-check alignment. Put the pins back in the electrical cabinet.


4th - If the machine is straight, then you're left to dial in the toolholder. Let's assume that you've got an ER32 collet you're holding your drill in. Mount up a piece of 1/2" drill-rod about 5-6" stickout. Now, mount the indicator in the XZ plane - at 2 o'clock to make sure the drill isn't pointing "in" or "out" along the X-axis. If it is, then you'll have to shim the toolholder to correct this, and re-check.

Next, sweep the rod in the YZ plane - at 11 o'clock - to see if the drill is parallel with the Z axis, and isn't pointing "up" or "down" in the Y-axis. If it's out, you'll have to loosen the bolts on the holder, and try to rotate the holder. If it's keyed, then take a file to the keys to give yourself a little room to adjust. Repeat.


5th - Now that you know the turret is straight, and the toolholder is straight, all you have to do is center the tool. This is where we remember out lesson from #1. Mount the mag-base on the face of the chuck, and pit the indicator tip on the piece of drill-rod. You're checking at 2 o'clock & 8 o'clock first, to center the tool in X. Then, you check the tool at 11 o'clock & 5 o'clock to see if it's centered in the "imaginary" Y-axis. You'll have to remember the sag amount from #1, and "fake" this measurement.

So from #1 - if the indicator read "zero" at 11 o'clock, and "-.004" at 5 o-clock, then you want to mimic those numbers when you're dialing in the tool in Y.




If all that goes well - your drill should be on-center, straight and dang-close to size.

pmack said:

Get a coaxial indicator, a regular test indicator will sag and you will be off center.

Richard King demonstrating indicator sag. - YouTube

Click to expand...

I agree with using a Coax.

That video has been floating around for a while, no disrespect to Richard (I've learned a lot from him), but I can do the exact same thing right now and my Indicator will not Droop .01". I use Interapid Indicators. But my B&S won't, and my Mits won't droop that far, were it me, I would have thrown that indicator in the trash or returned it for a refund or replacement.

R