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Dmg DMU 65 monoblock

electrobill

Plastic
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Hi everyone,

Looking to get information about the DMG DMU 65 monoblock.

Looking about reliability, performance, precision and also an approximate price without contacting a salesman.

Ideal machine should have:

At least 15k rpm
Heindenhain control
Through coolant
Air blast and if possible through spindle air blast
Chip conveyor
Minimum 30 tools
Touch probe
Laser toolsetter
3d quickset and/or kinematic opt for heidenhain

For your information, machine would probably be anchored through 15 inches concrete floor.

Type of work done: Prototyp, mould, die etc

Material : plastic, aluminium, soft steel up to tool steel

Needs to be able to do full 5 axis work (not only 3+2)

Thanks everyone for your input about this machine
 
Hi everyone,

Looking to get information about the DMG DMU 65 monoblock.

Looking about reliability, performance, precision and also an approximate price without contacting a salesman.

Ideal machine should have:

At least 15k rpm
Heindenhain control
Through coolant
Air blast and if possible through spindle air blast
Chip conveyor
Minimum 30 tools
Touch probe
Laser toolsetter
3d quickset and/or kinematic opt for heidenhain

For your information, machine would probably be anchored through 15 inches concrete floor.

Type of work done: Prototyp, mould, die etc

Material : plastic, aluminium, soft steel up to tool steel

Needs to be able to do full 5 axis work (not only 3+2)

Thanks everyone for your input about this machine

Actually in this case it's probably worth you reaching out to your DMG Mori sales person as some things have changed (in a good way) on that machine (except) for "Newer" price structure.

If there's a demo day etc. you can ask to see laser plots for straightness of travel, AND more critically rotational accuracies and repeatabilities - unidirectional and bi-directional ~ Caveat there 'They" may show you rotational plots for a DD (Direct drive / linear motor wrapped into a ring**) which is not the same as more conventional worm drive etc.

- The stated positional accuracies and brochure specs tend to be very conservative but also "designed" to be looser than whatever the current ITAR spec is . I.e. the thinking is if it's toooo accurate you can build nuclear munitions / war heads. ~ I "Believe" some of those specs and standards have been relaxed more recently [I'm not 100% up to date on that.]. (I know anything approaching sub arc second still rasies eyebrows.).

- In the past it's possible a German machine gets sneaked into the USA as being nominally lower precision and accuracy - esp. for rotational accuracies. Then kinda "Does better' with various "Accoutrements" and additions on US soil (in some cases - if needed).

- So... visiting your sales person means you can LOOK at ball bar plots and deeper metrics for the machine.

- My thing is more about how straight a machine can cut , and you can only get an idea of that from laser plots and various test parts + ISO 230-2 test part. + ball bar in XY, XZ and YZ planes. + runoff test sheets for build geometry - how square is the build basically. [Positional accuracies on a brochure don't tell you how straight a machine can cut on each axis. ]. (If you are doing multi sided mechanical parts that's important + rotational repeatabilities.). THEN there's the coordinated moves in 5 axis - so the NAS/ NIS - cone test is also an important indicator of "Move quality" and accuracy for sim 5 axis moves.

- Another reason to reach out to your DMG MORI sales "Peeps" is I believe there is a NEW method of volumetric calibration for that machine (possible to compensate for some residual errors that they left "On the table" - so to speak). ~ There is newer method with CF bar and precision balls etc. that traverse the 3d diagonal of the machine to keep everything kinematically tight / tighter as stuff DOES wander on many a machine.


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~ There used to be some screaming deals (circa 2016/2017 ish) on this machine as a "Package" in the base price low $300K s but equipped to actually be useful to $420s then (nice) discount BUT since then the price structure changes quite a bit (Upward) so really NOW I believe the machine maybe more in the $450s to $620K ++ range depending on options.

[I nearly pulled the trigger on one of these (Very close) but got physically injured and burnt several hundred thousand dollars just barely standing still/ treading water so have had to pivot , rethink / regroup somewhat + different processes (better) + pivot the business somewhat].

In my area CO, there are at least ten to twelve running around in the wild and Peeps seems happy with them but I would stress realistic expectations on accuracy. - there's a lot of long linkages there with both pros and cons, but the very German ram seems to be more crash tolerant than a smaller force loop ultra rigid machine. It has some flexibility in the head. Perfectly fine for fine finishing and decent cuts without going bonkers.

Seems @electrobill like you have a GOOD spec list there esp. Heidenhain - GOOD 3d visualization / crash aversion + super dynamics and servo tuning.

I think the machine is on three legs/feet - your foundation requirement might be a smidge easier - you have 15" GOOD ! :-)



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I'd encourage you @electrobill to reach out to your local sales team / sales "Engineers". you'll get much more up to date info.

Scales all axes would be the way to go IMO. linear and rotary esp for sim 5 axis.

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** DD motors on rotaries are amazing an' all but you need to double check that MTB designed for massive thermal regulation as those mothers generate a lot of heat and requires skillful thermal curve modelling / mapping in some instances . - Worms / roller gear cam are not too bad , can be really precise towards +/- 2 arc seconds (in some implementations) ; this is where broad conservative (easy) machines specs and tolerances come in as the machine will degrade in backlash / tightness over a seven to fifteen year period depending on number of shifts / hours / and type of production. I.e. making one type of blisk for ten years (trunnion pivots endlessly between two points/ fixed positions ) - WILL knacker a machine versus diverse parts (one shift every now and again) = more even wear over a much longer period.
 
@electrobill do you know how much thermal management / control you get with that ?

Spindle chiller , cooling of bearings and ball screw bearings / nuts etc. + other mechanical elements ?

Coolant chiller ? etc.

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Spendiness ++

At least 15k rpm
Heindenhain control ++
Through coolant ++
Air blast and if possible through spindle air blast good option for wet versus dry - tool steel
Chip conveyor ++
Minimum 30 tools
Touch probe
Laser toolsetter +++
3d quickset and/or kinematic opt for heidenhain

________________________________

If budget is an issue and you are doing more hands on work (prototype) rather than scaled up balls to the wall production you might be able to snip off some of those options to a knub ~ depends entirely how you want to work.

The notional "Overnight run" is the tipping point IMO.

No over night run nor long cycle times + co-habitate with machine doing other things, AND don't mind mucking out the machine you could;

snip off

- Thru spindle coolant + mister. (re program drilling cycles and other ).

- Laser tool setter. (tool breakage detection for overnight run).

- Chip conveyor.

Keep

Through spindle air blow. (Cutting dry capability (steels / mold-ish) work )

Touch probe + kinematic option.

Heidenhain (crash protection) + 3d.

^^^ Caveat / problem IF things go "Tits" up 5 years from now the resale value of the machine goes way down - more difficult to sell if you don't have chip conveyor and TSC and laser touch probe etc.*

- The hands on "Germanic/ Teutonic " spirit of garage warrior / engineer / "Gear head" with a 5 axis universal versus 5 axis with a view to production and enhanced automation seems to distinguish how these machines can or could be variously specc'd out. In Germany for example there is more of tradition of hands on "Universal" machine type work. Conversely looking at 5 axis as enhanced automation, then all the bells whistles are needed and it's very much more expensive. In Germany they tend to design "things" (parts, assemblies , machines, structures etc.) with wacky angles so the Universal tradition and partial preference over regular 3 axis is more geared to dealing with tricky "angular" planes and features rather than more American "Boxy" -(rectilinear)- designs. + whatever folks have to do in small automotive custom shops.

Most production oriented folks here on PM forum would be going "More Tools" "Never enough tools !!!".


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* Front end costs versus back end - I'd say if you have the space then have a hands on prototyping cell / feature reduced machine then BUY more machines for production oriented work if things are going well. IME (so far) it's difficult to piggy back and blend Prototype to production on one machine ... (Not impossible but tricky more risky / more "fragile" in business terms.). Really depends how much $ you want to burn up front and how you plan to scale. Financing + rent can be quite a treadmill versus buy outright and own everything (including premises etc.). Kinda depends on what kind of treadmill you want to hop on ?

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Potentially you could cheap out with using ONLY 3+2 or maybe 4+1 ???? lower spec - control A lot of times a 3d chamfer (flank of the tool) on complex quasi planer geometry can in fact be carried out 4+1 / 3+2 it's surprising what can be done. But sim 5 for deburring on complex compound curves is a nice luxury too.

If you have a lot of finishing equipment you can cut corners on some machine options but it's all about time and "Mess" then.

If you wanted to really cheap out a CMU 70 (larger work volume) scales as standard 3+2 / 4+1 might be one way to go. - Spindle is quite anemic though. less comprehensive cooling through the machine but is slower (less heat generated in various bearing / systems.).
 
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^^^ Strangely this is actually meaningfull to electro's / OP's question and discussion courtesy of MTD CNC (UK) + Pfronten and Cornelius Nöß.

Shows a lot of the engineering design and integrated software approach talking to the designers/ engineers.


There is another video for volumetric through the space calibration of this machine and others (one mo)

Can you tell I'm skiving off from the hideous tasks I'm supposed to be doing this Sunday morning lol.
 

VCS complete ^^^ (Volumetric Calibration System) - whatz I woz waffling on about

aids long term accuracy of machine as it "Ages". + immediate improvement of accuracy + touch of a button-ish calibration.

In field calibration "refinement" would be a better way of phrasing it in respect of known high precision engineering principals.

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OK back to work cam-era-man you skiving git !
 
Anyone who have and/or work on this machine who can say something else usefull ?

Just out of interest what happens if you don't come into contact with someone that has been running the DMU 65mb / techs that work on the machine ?

There are a couple of people that bought the machine on this forum but they are not regular posters and they kinda bought 'Oddball" versions of the machine - like Ultrasonic version.

I was dealing with a chap from the Original DMG factory / US manager named Orin, and he was very good. On a local visit.

But when I super enthusiastically mentioned that I would like to start a local user group for the machine they seemed rather cagey about that*.

I.e. they didn't seem keen for various users to share information or experiences.

I'm not doing a Makino vs. DMG Mori thing but Makino do have a customer portal and they have techs that you can phone to research the viability of how various machines have done 'Historically' + if you check out the second hand market you can see which models have presented themselves as "Lemons" as those tend to get off loaded faster.

What is your impression of DMG Mori in Quebec ?

For example for other machines ?

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* These machines tend to be a moving target (all the time) in terms of price structure and capability. Soooo basically a 2017/2018 DMU 65Mb machine is not gonna be the same as a 2020 / 2021 DMU 65Mb machine.
 
From what I can see here, Mazak service isn’t that good. Awea (Yama Seiki) service is good but there us a lack of precision in their machine. I personnally own one. Matsuura is good. We do not ear a lot about Makino. In my area, DMG Mori seems to grow a lot. Many companies I know bought this brand in the last 2 years.
 
From what I can see here, Mazak service isn’t that good. Awea (Yama Seiki) service is good but there us a lack of precision in their machine. I personnally own one. Matsuura is good. We do not ear a lot about Makino. In my area, DMG Mori seems to grow a lot. Many companies I know bought this brand in the last 2 years.

Is French your first language vs. English ? (just out of interest).

It's a real problem to figure out if a machine / line is good or serves your purposes or not.

Some people have a literal "Vendetta" against DMG Mori ~ I (personally) do not.

Triad (locally) seem to do absolutely the best they can, but they don't have complete control over other sides of the DMG Mori Empire. So "They" have to navigate accordingly.

The local sales people (to me) are very good in that they try to steer customers away from machines that they themselves have had trouble with (in the recent to more distant past).

I.e. they don't want the hassle either. (smart.).

In "sentiment" their basic principal is to help you grow your company and in essence be long term business partners vs. short term sales. ~ "In theory".

@electrobill I understand why you would want to set a boundary with DMG Mori sales people as they are very good at what they do.

A lot of people that actually go to the Pfronten factory in Germany get swept up into the clouds by the tech-ambience and pretty much ready to sign on the dotted line and much else besides.

So far the DMU 50 3rd gen seems to be going well with folks that bought them. (as you know DMU 65 monoblock / production line is separate and distinct from the DMU 50 3rd gen production line . ).

I understand the "Problem" that locally it's possible that DMG Mori (due to a small and skilled sales team) has been able to sell the sh*t out of various machines. Some of these machines (in certain instances) may have a more Mori Seiki / Dr. Mori origin vs a DMG "Origin" [not quite "going there.". In some sense it's Dr. Mori's "Show". [Slightly off topic perhaps.].

2 years you say... DMG Mori growing locally.

That's a bit of a conundrum, as those models may be in the hands of those that may not be that experienced with new/ different controls + particular versions of a machine + different configurations; EVEN if you get to meet some of the other users / shops in your area. On the other hand, it may be there's a very experienced 5 axis guy in your area that bought a DMG Mori DMU 65 mb that's doing really well - BUT may be reluctant to share his or her experiences as he or she may perceive you as direct competition. Again sales people hold the keys to who they want to arrange local shop floor visits with.

I have to admit it is a tricky one and can be a bit of mine field.

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The one advantage of some of the Japanese builders is that they basically build the same machine for much longer periods of time,

much more conservative.

I'm not shilling for Makino or DMG Mori etc. but one thing that is good about Makino is that they have been building their best machines for a long time with incremental improvements - so you know what you are getting and their price structure is very steady.

In other words as a business owner you can more easily plan how to scale and expand as they are not going to change the price structure on you in the future.

In my experience the good / top drawer Japanese builders (and middle of the pack) are more transparent about precisions accuracies and capabilities of the machine.

Depending on what you want Matsuura MX 520 or MX 850 might be in the same-ish working volume (Fanuc + Matsuura layer Obvi. + recent changes with Camplete). + Hermle* is a possibility too.

OKK might be worth a look also for more specialized machines esp. turbine blades and other tricky aerospace parts. but not Heidenhain. - Fanuc.


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* Not shilling for Hermle either but seems they have been pretty much building the same machine(s) for a very long time so in essence very predictable especially if you are into HEIDENHAIN + need very good tech support.



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Again, it is a "Tricky" one / "I get it", and the risks are disproportionately in favor of the MTBs (Machine tool builders).

Maybe "No news is good news " Re: DMU 65mb ?
 
Actually in this case it's probably worth you reaching out to your DMG Mori sales person as some things have changed (in a good way) on that machine (except) for "Newer" price structure.

If there's a demo day etc. you can ask to see laser plots for straightness of travel, AND more critically rotational accuracies and repeatabilities - unidirectional and bi-directional ~ Caveat there 'They" may show you rotational plots for a DD (Direct drive / linear motor wrapped into a ring**) which is not the same as more conventional worm drive etc.

- The stated positional accuracies and brochure specs tend to be very conservative but also "designed" to be looser than whatever the current ITAR spec is . I.e. the thinking is if it's toooo accurate you can build nuclear munitions / war heads. ~ I "Believe" some of those specs and standards have been relaxed more recently [I'm not 100% up to date on that.]. (I know anything approaching sub arc second still rasies eyebrows.).

- In the past it's possible a German machine gets sneaked into the USA as being nominally lower precision and accuracy - esp. for rotational accuracies. Then kinda "Does better' with various "Accoutrements" and additions on US soil (in some cases - if needed).

- So... visiting your sales person means you can LOOK at ball bar plots and deeper metrics for the machine.



__________________________________________


Can you give me the rundown on this ITAR shit as it relates to 5-axis milling centers and nuclear warheads? I hear guys throwing this around and my little google searches haven't turned up much. It's always the same "we're worried ISIS can get their hands on a Grob and make a nuke" type thing but I don't get it....
 
Can you give me the rundown on this ITAR shit as it relates to 5-axis milling centers and nuclear warheads? I hear guys throwing this around and my little google searches haven't turned up much. It's always the same "we're worried ISIS can get their hands on a Grob and make a nuke" type thing but I don't get it....

Very quick first pass,

Main experience I've had with this more recently (a few years ago) was with Renishaw and their angle encoders.

[Good folks / very good experience - good 'peeps".].

We were digging in on a higher accuracy applications for rotary axes for our own equipment (not machine tool related),

but larger diameter (for us) ring encoders 125 mm to 250 mm.

Using twin read heads set 180 degrees apart we can get higher precisions and accuracies that compensate for any runout and bearing wobble.

then there's a Renishaw ring encoder option that is four read heads and is a very much thicker and more rigid design + designed for stress relief / build up through thermal changes that lurks around 1 arc second and sub arc second in a very reliable way.

Prior to that we were doing stuff around 20 to ten arc seconds,

then 10 to 5 arc seconds,

then the 2 to 1 to sub arc second that's when the ITAR stuff for me kicked in.

It's a not a big deal but needs to be recorded/ logged / discussed at Renishaw's end.

_____________________________________________________

I'm not a 100% sure about this ~ just off the top of my head.

The original Manhattan project design for the first Plutonium bomb [Los Alamos New Mexico ] - relies on pretty tricky spherical wedges that subtend from a notional center point of a sphere. So it's an implosion design from the sphere interior with three dimensionally interleaved explosive forms and plutonium wedges to create a fully working plutonium based implosion nuclear chain reaction. The original/ first "OG" Plutonium bomb was a massive piece of hardware that very few bombers (aircraft) could actually fit into their bomb bays. the B-29 being one example.

It's my understanding / guess (although I could be completely wrong) - Miniaturization of "Nukes" to be small and light enough to be launched by ICBM's and more modern multi war head designs rely on much higher and tighter tolerance fitting of all these components in a tighter smaller volume. If you think about the cumulative error for all these tight fitting parts is not trivial so each individual wedge needs to be pretty "Dead nuts".

Hence production capabilities of sub 5 arc second in 5 axis (two rotary axes) seem to be "In scope" but nowadays I think it's more in the near to sub arc second capability.

____________________________________________________


I remember DMG Mori wanted to get copies of the parts we were making for ITAR requirements - which I thought was a bit ludicrous 'cuz we were looking at a small DD rotary 5 axis unit to be mounted into a 3 axis machine lol. [or maybe another subtle tactic to "Up-sell" lol. ].


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** I think with Grob they may be referring to ITAR in respect of remotely diagnosing a machine on line so that there are some sort of security measures in place but IME folks at Los Alamos and Sandia insist on not connecting any super - critical systems to ANY network. Sandia in NM is basically the "Bomb factory" (in part) for the US nuclear arsenal.

++ Time willing I will double check / back research. [ Most 5 axis CNC machines are not +/- 1 arc second or +/- 2 arc second in practicality maybe the very top drawer Okuma and their ilk and some Yasdas.].

wedgy - bomb.JPG << Click to enlarge.

Even on Pinterest you can see photos of various smaller more modern warhead designs.

_____

RE: "Rogue" nations it's the uranium enrichment processes that are a far bigger challenge than actually building a bomb. [Different technology.].
 
Very quick first pass,

Main experience I've had with this more recently (a few years ago) was with Renishaw and their angle encoders.

[Good folks / very good experience - good 'peeps".].

We were digging in on a higher accuracy applications for rotary axes for our own equipment (not machine tool related),

but larger diameter (for us) ring encoders 125 mm to 250 mm.

Using twin read heads set 180 degrees apart we can get higher precisions and accuracies that compensate for any runout and bearing wobble.

then there's a Renishaw ring encoder option that is four read heads and is a very much thicker and more rigid design + designed for stress relief / build up through thermal changes that lurks around 1 arc second and sub arc second in a very reliable way.

Prior to that we were doing stuff around 20 to ten arc seconds,

then 10 to 5 arc seconds,

then the 2 to 1 to sub arc second that's when the ITAR stuff for me kicked in.

It's a not a big deal but needs to be recorded/ logged / discussed at Renishaw's end.

_____________________________________________________

I'm not a 100% sure about this ~ just off the top of my head.

The original Manhattan project design for the first Plutonium bomb [Los Alamos New Mexico ] - relies on pretty tricky spherical wedges that subtend from a notional center point of a sphere. So it's an implosion design from the sphere interior with three dimensionally interleaved explosive forms and plutonium wedges to create a fully working plutonium based implosion nuclear chain reaction. The original/ first "OG" Plutonium bomb was a massive piece of hardware that very few bombers (aircraft) could actually fit into their bomb bays. the B-29 being one example.

It's my understanding / guess (although I could be completely wrong) - Miniaturization of "Nukes" to be small and light enough to be launched by ICBM's and more modern multi war head designs rely on much higher and tighter tolerance fitting of all these components in a tighter smaller volume. If you think about the cumulative error for all these tight fitting parts is not trivial so each individual wedge needs to be pretty "Dead nuts".

Hence production capabilities of sub 5 arc second in 5 axis (two rotary axes) seem to be "In scope" but nowadays I think it's more in the near to sub arc second capability.

____________________________________________________


I remember DMG Mori wanted to get copies of the parts we were making for ITAR requirements - which I thought was a bit ludicrous 'cuz we were looking at a small DD rotary 5 axis unit to be mounted into a 3 axis machine lol. [or maybe another subtle tactic to "Up-sell" lol. ].


______________________________________________________________________________________________



** I think with Grob they may be referring to ITAR in respect of remotely diagnosing a machine on line so that there are some sort of security measures in place but IME folks at Los Alamos and Sandia insist on not connecting any super - critical systems to ANY network. Sandia in NM is basically the "Bomb factory" (in part) for the US nuclear arsenal.

++ Time willing I will double check / back research. [ Most 5 axis CNC machines are not +/- 1 arc second or +/- 2 arc second in practicality maybe the very top drawer Okuma and their ilk and some Yasdas.].

As always cameraman you give the best responses! Always so much info packed in.

Yea I was checking our Hurcos and they can do +-6 arc seconds for each axis with the linear scales I believe. Need to double check that tomorrow. Correct me if i am wrong but I think Haas UMC series does like +-20 arc seconds per axis?

Anyways its funny because I feel like the level of accuracy you describe could also be done with 3 axis machines...they didn't exactly have 5-axis back during Manhattan. Obviously designs today resemble very little of the original. It would be super interesting to read a machinist's perspective of all those crazy parts they prob have to make. All R&D and aerospace is to me very interesting when you get into the nitty gritty...also from what little I know I think they have loosened some of those restrictions in recent years? Someone with more firsthand knowledge would know better than me.

Sorry to derail the thread, but to the OP, nothing in your list of needs excludes the DMU50 3rd gen unless I am mistaken. Have you considered looking at that?
 
As always cameraman you give the best responses! Always so much info packed in.

Yea I was checking our Hurcos and they can do +-6 arc seconds for each axis with the linear scales I believe. Need to double check that tomorrow. Correct me if i am wrong but I think Haas UMC series does like +-20 arc seconds per axis?

Anyways its funny because I feel like the level of accuracy you describe could also be done with 3 axis machines...they didn't exactly have 5-axis back during Manhattan. Obviously designs today resemble very little of the original. It would be super interesting to read a machinist's perspective of all those crazy parts they prob have to make. All R&D and aerospace is to me very interesting when you get into the nitty gritty...also from what little I know I think they have loosened some of those restrictions in recent years? Someone with more firsthand knowledge would know better than me.

Sorry to derail the thread, but to the OP, nothing in your list of needs excludes the DMU50 3rd gen unless I am mistaken. Have you considered looking at that?

Thanks for the compliment;

(Likewise I do appreciate your posts / like reading your posts comments questions etc.).

Yea I was checking our Hurcos and they can do +-6 arc seconds for each axis with the linear scales I believe. Need to double check that tomorrow. Correct me if i am wrong but I think Haas UMC series does like +-20 arc seconds per axis?

^^^ That's about right (on paper) I was more recently looking at a swivel head (B axis) Hurco machine mill +/- 7 arc seconds + 4th axis in the A over X orientation. (scales) but some B axis machines from "Other" famous builder can have higher uni-directional repeatabilities of the order of +/- 2 arc seconds (two sigma). It's a case of how the builder defines the statistics and tests in some cases.

That's about right for HAAS UMC - the good thing at least with HAAS universal basic design is that the part probe can be used to correct the plane of the part and the table -there it depends on sensitivity of movement + a bit "Math". (second ops/ part flip etc. / part location. ).

On some machines if the trunnion is tilted 90 degrees the machine can't grab the probe from the tool changer without first having to tilt the major axis of the trunnion back to its default(flatter ) position; and then back again - probe , tilt again to grab a tool and then tilt back again into final intended orientation. - So a machine like a kiatmura 5 axis vertical or a Hermle have that problem, as they grab the next tool / probe trough the center back of the machine behind the trunnion. So every time the trunnion tilts to and back to a position it's a NEW roll of the dice - metrologically and statistically; or just take lower broader tolerance (bands) for part geometry or have the most accurate version of whatever machine . I'm not sure about the Okuma (entry level (genos) M-460V 5 ax for clearances also) So Ironically that's one plus for the HAAS UMC as it can grab stuff from the tool changer without having to tilt the trunnion so theoretically you can program corrective automated processes (within limits) using probing.

Anyways its funny because I feel like the level of accuracy you describe could also be done with 3 axis machines...

EXACTLY :-) ^^^ You really hit the nail on the head there. Although for my little ship and applications that's kinda where we are now, so newer direction in grinding and Wire EDM and custom built optically aligned kinematic jigs. At least that's the plan as the 5 axis machines that can reach equivalent positional tolerances are astronomically expensive and kind of a miss (depending on part geometry). For some of our components we are having to go bearing level tolerances ~ Old school lapping and components lapped to fit each other - but there are a few things we want to do with air bearing spindles plonked onto 3 axis machines + optical elements aligned in various assemblies "Cut" in situ. It's that issue of re-clampings vs. ultra precise hands on set ups. Sometime 5 axis for more general work is more accurate - but not always.

So (as you know) a lot of high to really high precision work can be carried out in a hands on way... And that's where I guess the 5 axis (automation) stuff comes for building nukes as it's tricky to work with Plutonium etc. in a hands on way and not die**.



So a 5 axis machine can be operated behind glass robotically and nobody dies (well at least not immediately).

(so always with 5 axis there's the dimension of enhanced automation) - these days a lot of people don't know how to operate a sin(e) plate and can't do the "Math" for tricky compound angles in 3 space (from redundantly probed XYZ coordinates).

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* I haven't watched HBO's Chernobyl yet - but working up the courage to do so (lol / not lol) - spozed to be really well researched / accurate set design , in spite of composite characters and various script decisions.

OT ** I had one colleague that was a nuclear chemist that worked at Los Alamos (Manhattan project first "Atom" bomb ) - but later turned his hand to earth quake studies on historic buildings - specifically byzantine churches in Greece and Turkey (Getty project in LA in the 90's GCI (Getty Conservation Institute. ), most of the folks you meet today for example in New Mexico that are older are more "Cold Warriors" and a glut of laser physicists left over from the Star Wars program lol. 70's / 80s. But I agree the machinists of that era and beyond have incredible stories to tell. A good friend of mine from that era was chief prototype grinder at Curtiss Wright ~ He did some work on the original B-29's and "Power recovery units" / early turbo machinery and forays into Titanium and Magnesium - WISH I could go back in time and ask him a whole bunch of questions NOW 'cuz back then I didn't know what questions I should be asking (even though we were working on projects together - institutionally things become rather compartmentalized for efficiencies sake.) but gleaned enough to be helpful.
 
I of course don't know the details of the thinking (or randomness) around particular ITAR rules, but it surely works out to "don't just sell them a rope they'll hang us with, make them build their own rope" - while we try to keep our lead in other ways.

Because there's no law of physics that prevents any nation state, or even well resourced terrorist org, from creating some awful weapon - it's economics, time, focus, that restrict that game.
 
It is a matter of size. We already habe a vertical 5 axis which is basicaly the same dimensions as a DMU50 3rd gen. So at least going up to DMU65 mb would be an upgrade, either in size than precision.

Sorry if some word are not accurate. As Cameraman asked, french is my first language over english. You were right ! Hehe !
 
It is a matter of size. We already habe a vertical 5 axis which is basicaly the same dimensions as a DMU50 3rd gen. So at least going up to DMU65 mb would be an upgrade, either in size than precision.

Sorry if some word are not accurate. As Cameraman asked, french is my first language over english. You were right ! Hehe !

If there's something complicated you want to set out [difficult constructions ] I can probably translate from French to English (my French is not brilliant, but had it at school and lived in France a number of years- only been to Nova Scotia. So I don't know "Canadian" French :-) ).

looking at a map Quebec covers a vast area,

Are you in a rural location far away from Quebec city or closer to Ottawa ?

I think DMG Mori (Canada) are based in Ontario ( Mississauga ).

Just wondering about service techs and support in your area ?

Hypermill is going well for you where you are ? - I think for Hypermill - 5 axis (new), a training representative has to come to a customer's facility rather than rely on printed or online tutorials etc.
 
Anyone who have and/or work on this machine who can say something else usefull ?

Posts #2, #3, #4 and #5 are intended / designed to get 95% of all the BS out of the way first, as these threads can go on for 25, 30 , 40 pages,

So the intent is really to get to the nitty gritty - (en venir au fond du problème) - of what you can or can not find out or determine for yourself before contacting DMG Mori sales (as per your want.).

One possibility is to repost the same enquiry on the CNC section with a different emphasis and title.

"Anyone running a DMU 65 mb ?" (for example), [Most people that run a DMU 65mb know that its a DMG / DMG Mori machine but you might get broader responses from people that run or own more diverse 5 axis DMG Mori machines. ].

THIS section of the forum IS more general but the CNC section is much more cnc focused so you may be able to connect with more people that are currently running newer DMU65mb machines.


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https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/

^^^ CNC section,

and,

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/dmg-mori-gildemeister-maho-cnc/

^^^ DMG Mori , Gildemsister, Maho section of the forum.
 
Are you in a rural location far away from Quebec city or closer to Ottawa ?

I think DMG Mori (Canada) are based in Ontario ( Mississauga ).

Just wondering about service techs and support in your area ?

I am near Quebec city, more specifically Sherbrooke.

For the question of the service techs, I should check that. But if I compare to Matsuura, they’re also based in Ontario and they have servive techs who covers the entire Quebec and the east coast.
 
I am near Quebec city, more specifically Sherbrooke.

For the question of the service techs, I should check that. But if I compare to Matsuura, they’re also based in Ontario and they have servive techs who covers the entire Quebec and the east coast.

Looking from the 60,000 ft view

if you have approximately $400K to $600K for your next machine purchase and you have space and 15" foundation ...

Then maybe your next machine purchase is more of a business decision than just "Buy the next machine". I.e. automation is one possibility and who you want to partner with as business partner and scale with.

i.e. Depending on the leaps you want to make and the risks you want to take you probably want a vendor/distributor/MTB combo that's not going to let you down. [In very broad strokes.]. <<<< obviously - Bitch slap "reality check " that - that statement should have to be made at all.

1. Folks more recently have been talking "smack" / trash talking matsuura - not sure where that comes from ? [not in the loop on that.]*.

2. Virtually any Hermle (even the C250 or C400 or C 650 [entry level] ) is going to be more accurate than a DMU 65mb. + Hermle have new pallet and automation systems. [Tech support is very good + you have the Heidenhain control + training for that control .].


I get that the DMU 65mb has a bit more in "Z" work piece wise and the ergonomics are better than some machines.


It's tricky...

[I have no sense of the Quebec scene for machine tool vendors, job shops and manufacturing at different scales.].


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* Just to be clear I don't personally have any negative experiences of Matsuura as a company and its distributers.

** As far as MAZAK goes seems people (at least western region) muddle through pretty well - plays well with the bottom line if you can scale. As far as "Googling about" - seems the closest MAZAK facility is 500 miles away from you even though MAZAK has facilities and presence in Edmonton, Alberta, Cambridge and Ontario.

It's easy to forget that geographically Canada is a massive county.

Not sure how much or how many services are available over the border to/from the USA ? [I have zero knowledge of that .].
 
Is French your first language vs. English ? (just out of interest).

It's a real problem to figure out if a machine / line is good or serves your purposes or not.

Some people have a literal "Vendetta" against DMG Mori ~ I (personally) do not.

SNIP
/QUOTE]

heeey... i resent that... :D
 








 
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