DMG NLX2500/700 or Mazak QTN250MSY?

What are people's thoughts between an NLX2500/700 vs Mazaks QTN250MSY? Assume budget isn't really an issue. Working with mostly aluminum and plastics, a small amount of mild steel, and programming mostly offline with Fusion360 at the moment. Parts are generally pretty small, the biggest might be 2.5", smallest down around 1/4". Probably won't be barfed right away, but could be in the future. I'm less concerned with how fast it can cut or the speed of the rapids, and more concerned with ease of use, surface finish, chip control, and of course local support...although both have an office a couple hours away in the Twin Cities area.

We're also potentially looking to add a 40x20 VMC at the same time from the same manufacturer, so we'd be comparing the CMX1100V and the VCN570.

maf1909 said:

What are people's thoughts between an NLX2500/700 vs Mazaks QTN250MSY? Assume budget isn't really an issue. Working with mostly aluminum and plastics, a small amount of mild steel, and programming mostly offline with Fusion360 at the moment. Parts are generally pretty small, the biggest might be 2.5", smallest down around 1/4". Probably won't be barfed right away, but could be in the future. I'm less concerned with how fast it can cut or the speed of the rapids, and more concerned with ease of use, surface finish, chip control, and of course local support...although both have an office a couple hours away in the Twin Cities area.

We're also potentially looking to add a 40x20 VMC at the same time from the same manufacturer, so we'd be comparing the CMX1100V and the VCN570.

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Like Moth to the flame...

You mean NLX2500-SMC/700 vs. QTN250MSY ?

VCN570C or even 575C.

Just one observation (not getting into it too deeply right off the bat/ morning coffee blah blah blah),

an NLX2500-SMC/700 seems like "Overkill" for a largest diameter 2 1/2" part where a lot of parts are tending towards 1/4" and plastics , and mainly aluminum and some mild steel. [I kinda understand the possible commitment to a bar feeder idea.].

Is part length an issue ?

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Are the parts going from MSY / SMC platform to 3 axis mill or vice versa ?

Any ideas on tolerances and geometries might be good ?

Is this a production machine vs. smaller numbers , assuming high mix lowish volume ? Almost prototype ? Job shop ? In house applications ?

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Your priorities are ,

- ease of use,

- surface finish,

- chip control,

- local support

----> And budget isn't an issue. If it was then you could probably throw DOOSAN and OKUMA and even HAAS and "Other" into the mix.

maf1909 said:

<snip> Assume budget isn't really an issue. <snip> and programming mostly offline with Fusion360 at the moment.



<snip> ease of use, <snip>, and of course local support...although both have an office a couple hours away in the Twin Cities area.

<snip>

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I'm not sure how well Fusion 360 plays for you with integrated mill-turn + counter spindle -- applications...Posts + representative tooling and machine simulation.


^^^ MAZAK offer CAM system that can be run from a desktop but grabs all the needed data from your machine -

Allegedly tighter / less hassle integration ~ I haven't tried "SMOOTH CAM RS Desktop Programming" .

Other Folks on this forum would have a better idea as to how Fusion 360 really is for the tasks you want to accomplish and hence potential relationship with "Local support".

Maybe less trips back and fourth to the machine to prove out code and not crash the machine so much ? (shrugging shoulders)



DMG Mori NLX platform has a lot of things you can do directly on the Celos control.

the sizes I mentioned are for parts I have now that I 3D print a lot of, which works fine but is expensive compared to machining them. These machines would mostly be prototyping things I design, and potentially production work for those same parts if they're successful. There's also the possibility of job shop work.

We're somewhat trying to future-proof by getting machines that are way more than what we currently need, but capable of whatever crazy stuff we come up with.

maf1909 said:

the sizes I mentioned are for parts I have now that I 3D print a lot of, which works fine but is expensive compared to machining them. These machines would mostly be prototyping things I design, and potentially production work for those same parts if they're successful. There's also the possibility of job shop work.

We're somewhat trying to future-proof by getting machines that are way more than what we currently need, but capable of whatever crazy stuff we come up with.

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You might want to check out Mazak (integrex) J-200 and maybe integrex i-100 (non bartac and bartac ?) ... [ positional and sim 5 axis on mill turn platforms]. Similar price to 3 axis mill + MSY type turning center [But might be overkill]. [Not an expert on chip conveyors and plastics / related hassles thereof ].

Sorta get where you are coming from,

Personally I had to abandon the idea of over loading a prototype cell for scaling and production , but break into two, keep the prototype "cell" intact and buy more production oriented machines for specific product lines. As and when needed - depends on your floor space and premises / flexibility to scale.

Means (maybe) one does not have to fret too much (immediately) about counter spindles and bar feeders (perhaps) ? It's one of those things where if you go for a counter spindle "Done in one" marketing speak, then also have to consider parts catcher / automation (robot or gantry loader) to make it worth while. That all adds up a bit and might be obstructive to prototype work. In some cases it can boil down to one set of soft jaws versus two (depending on how you have designed things) and whether you need to open the door once or twice to finish a part.

For your turning work do think you'll need a steady rest or tail stock ?

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Intrigued by low tolerance parts that you got away with 3d printing - but I have seen robotic polymeric components printed and fitted with higher precision bearings and mechatronics. The NLX and MAZAK lathes / turning centers have very good surface finishes and sub micron roundness of parts in "easier" materials like aluminum and brass.

The NLX is a tough / rugged machine box-ed ways - good for automotive + production. If a lot of precision tapers and fiddly accurate indexing + milling I'd lean more to a mazak. Surfaces that have to reference each other very accurately on different planes - B axis mill turn can be good. (MAZAK seem to be trying to up their game on the in process part probing with higher accuracy Renishaw probes with strain gauges built in ).

I'm kinda getting a Swissmak vibe ;-) ~~~~~~~ :-/

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Sounds like approaches to work holding may be critical to your applications and not distort parts. So use of collet systems, arbors / mandrels maybe important or the use of related systems from someone like Hainbuch or Forkhardt.

You may be having to make more fixtures than you anticipate so having an accurate and tough/ rugged machine can be GOOD i.e. the overkill aspect useful for making sound fixtures or a bit of hard turning maybe ? Depends what you envision / want to get into.

The machines are pretty evenly matched. Both are mature designs, with the iron largely unchanged for decades.

The NLX is quintessentially Mori Seiki. One of the best machines ever made, IMHO.

maf1909 said:

the sizes I mentioned are for parts I have now that I 3D print a lot of, which works fine but is expensive compared to machining them. These machines would mostly be prototyping things I design, and potentially production work for those same parts if they're successful. There's also the possibility of job shop work.

We're somewhat trying to future-proof by getting machines that are way more than what we currently need, but capable of whatever crazy stuff we come up with.

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Y-axis subspindle lathes are production workhorses. Kind of a pain to prototype on.

The Bartac is designed to be able to run a 4 foot long piece of material 4 inches in diameter. That can get heavy. The main spindle is limited to 2000 RPM. Not so good for small parts, or for parts that have more turning work than mill work. On our Bartac we make complex valve bodies with lots of millwork. The fact that you can jam a 4 foot piece of material in it saves us a ton of saw time. This is the perfect machine for our application, but maybe not this one. A non-Bartac (?) Integrex would get you everything, but at a cost.
Having run both numerous models of Mazaks, and Mori NZX/NLX's I would go with the Mori. But they are both good machines

Gobo said:

The Bartac is designed to be able to run a 4 foot long piece of material 4 inches in diameter. That can get heavy. The main spindle is limited to 2000 RPM. Not so good for small parts, or for parts that have more turning work than mill work. On our Bartac we make complex valve bodies with lots of millwork. The fact that you can jam a 4 foot piece of material in it saves us a ton of saw time. This is the perfect machine for our application, but maybe not this one. A non-Bartac (?) Integrex would get you everything, but at a cost.
Having run both numerous models of Mazaks, and Mori NZX/NLX's I would go with the Mori. But they are both good machines

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Cool about the valve-body work.

The Bartacs have a premium ($) for the reasons you outline - they do seem pretty awesome.

good point about the 2000 rpm on main spindle large bore.

Some counter spindles have the higher rpm capability (in general) when faced with a larger lower rpm main spindle (as you know) -sometimes up to 6000 rpm. That's one argument you see for a counter spindle.

J-200 $300K ish to $350 k ish depending on options (in some cases) - B axis indexing 5 degrees but has a 1 degree indexing option (very accurate due to curvic-ish coupling ). (less powerful milling spindle than the i series integrex but good for a number applications.). Capto interface being preferable to HSK for turning.

Main spindle on a J-200 is 5000 rpm (I believe) - 8" chuck/ idea.

I think the Bartacs start in the $ 400Ks like $430 K (s) ?

Some deals can be had on integrex i-100 and 200's but rare / need to be quick on the trigger.

They have a new H - series (maybe OT).

NLX's seem very solid. OP's NLX2500-SMC/700 $225K ish to $250K ish range ? Their straight up two axis turning centers seem really good also.


CMX 1100V with accurate 4th axis + two axis turning center = $300K ish ++ ? so if precision is not an issue i.e. clampings - re clampings / set ups ?


wondering about Fusion 360 idea + collision avoidance.

Only Personally - Y axis lathes or MSY kinda scare me, at least B axis mill-turn (no lower turret) and formal tool changer for mill head not so many tools / interference/ clearances to think about. little simpler and cleaner to deal with, set up and program at least for slower work lol, but potentially better for bearings seats , bores and milled flats that need to be pretty orthogonal / well referenced to each other in a single-ish set up + accurately disposed radial features + basic concentricity low runout offered by a turning spindle. [Maybe not relevant to OP/ @maf1909].

cameraman said:

NLX's seem very solid. [/B] OP's NLX2500-SMC/700 $225K ish to $250K ish range ? Their straight up two axis turning centers seem really good also.


CMX 1100V with accurate 4th axis + two axis turning center = $300K ish ++ ? so if precision is not an issue i.e. clampings - re clampings / set ups ?


wondering about Fusion 360 idea + collision avoidance.

Only Personally - Y axis lathes or MSY kinda scare me, at least B axis mill-turn (no lower turret) and formal tool changer for mill head not so many tools / interference/ clearances to think about. little simpler and cleaner to deal with, set up and program at least for slower work lol, but potentially better for bearings seats , bores and milled flats that need to be pretty orthogonal / well referenced to each other in a single-ish set up + accurately disposed radial features + basic concentricity low runout offered by a turning spindle. [Maybe not relevant to OP/ @maf1909].

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I have a few y-axis NLX, they are very solid and easy to fix. They are pretty safe with an easy program checking so you don't have to worry about crashing things too much. Y-axis is great, I would recommend them to everyone (get with the extra extension clearance), they are easy and only and extra few tens of thousand extra. Well worth the money for the options it gives IMO. They also mill pretty solidly, drills up to an inch and a bit, milling 1.25 with 0.125 cuts are pretty reasonable.

Mydrrin said:

I have a few y-axis NLX, they are very solid and easy to fix. They are pretty safe with an easy program checking so you don't have to worry about crashing things too much. Y-axis is great, I would recommend them to everyone (get with the extra extension clearance), they are easy and only and extra few tens of thousand extra. Well worth the money for the options it gives IMO. They also mill pretty solidly, drills up to an inch and a bit, milling 1.25 with 0.125 cuts are pretty reasonable.

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They both seem to be pretty darn good machines, and DMG is definitely the way we've been leaning.

The CMX mill looks nicer than the VCN from mazak, especially with chip control and ergonomics since the y-axis is in the head instead of the table, and they're both pretty close to the same price.

Mydrrin said:

I would recommend them to everyone (get with the extra extension clearance), they are easy and only and extra few tens of thousand extra. Well worth the money for the options it gives IMO. They also mill pretty solidly, drills up to an inch and a bit, milling 1.25 with 0.125 cuts are pretty reasonable.

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Extra extension clearance? Is that for your live tooling? This is something I am unaware of. Please explain.

You say budget is not an issue,

For prototyping it would be a Baxis subspindle Integrex type machine hands down. Trying to squeeze 14 driven tools onto a 12 station turret sucks. Especially for just a couple parts.

Gobo said:

Extra extension clearance? Is that for your live tooling? This is something I am unaware of. Please explain.

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many of the NLX2500 machines that are ordered for stock in the US come equipped with extra clearance cut out in the sheet metal on the main spindle wall and also extra clearance behind the turret for longer tools pointing in the x-axis. If you don't get a machine from stock and order custom it's only a few hundred bucks for each and well worth it.