DMU50 3rd Gen. or Hermle C250

Kase · Jan 7, 2018

We are planning to purchase a 5-axis milling machine and have 2 options on the table: DMU-50 3rd generation and Hermle C-250. I would appreciate for any advise or feedback.
The DMU-50 3rd generation is a new DMG Mori model since 2017 which is a bit upgraded from earlier version and looks on the paper almost as good as Hermle C-250. Hermle's good reputation is a well known fact, but the C-250 is a new entry level 5-axis machine and is a bit downgraded model from earlier "high-performance" range and are so called "performance" range machines. The Hermles are 10-20% more expensive.
Does anyone has experience with these new models?

Edster · Jan 7, 2018

You might want to look at the Okuma Genos M460V 5ax too.

GENOS M46V-5AX | 5-Axis Vertical Machining Center | VMC

Kase · Jan 7, 2018

No, thank you! We have some experience with Okumas, we prefer to stick to those two options and look for a feedback from users.

rlockwood · Jan 7, 2018

The answer is always Hermle..

CNCBurnout · Jan 7, 2018

I program on only Hermles at work and I really enjoy the machines and have no real complaints.The only other machine I've worked with was a Hurco BMX50 so my preference of Hermle might be a little bias by lack of experience with other CNCs. Siemens 840D is the controller we have and its amazing, I dont know if the model C250 might have a heidenhain controller?

I've heard horror stories of how 4 years ago my company that I work for use to have a 5-axis DMG but had to get rid of it because of there was no support from DMG for maintenance or repair. Don't get me wrong getting Hermle's Techs out here are pricey but really they've only been called out for operator errors.

implmex · Jan 7, 2018

Hi Kase:
Let me begin by saying I have never owned or even run either machine brand other than a manual pantograph (Deckel KF2) and a manual mill (Deckel FP1).

Having said that, I would never invest in a modern DMG machine simply because they have acquired such a bad reputation for breaking a lot, not living up to performance claims and having pathetic service records with arrogant staff and indifferent parts availability, unreasonable delays and outrageous service costs.

I have seen numerous rants on this site and others where people have bought these machines and have had truly dreadful experiences trying to get them to run consistently and make money with them.
It would be instructive for you to do a search on this site for some of these rants and get a sense of whether these complainants are legitimately aggrieved or are just blowing smoke to be dramatic.

Now, to be fair, I have not experienced any of this personally; in fact I have not even experienced it at second hand and the old Deckel machines I've run were beautifully made and a joy to use.

I confess to having been enraptured by them in the 1980's and early 1990's, but then the bad stuff began to surface.
Now it's an alarming litany of exasperated frustration at the frequency of failure and the indifference by DMG of a reasonable response in a timely way; so I'd place my money on a Hermle where the reputation of the company is less controversial.
Of course you could still end up with a lemon, but the odds.....

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

nsharma · Jan 7, 2018

Kase said:
We are planning to purchase a 5-axis milling machine and have 2 options on the table: DMU-50 3rd generation and Hermle C-250. I would appreciate for any advise or feedback.
The DMU-50 3rd generation is a new DMG Mori model since 2017 which is a bit upgraded from earlier version and looks on the paper almost as good as Hermle C-250. Hermle's good reputation is a well known fact, but the C-250 is a new entry level 5-axis machine and is a bit downgraded model from earlier "high-performance" range and are so called "performance" range machines. The Hermles are 10-20% more expensive.
Does anyone has experience with these new models?

We made a very deliberate analysis of the available options for 5 axis machines last year, including the hermle c250, we finally choose the new dmu50, but decided to get it in 2018 due to our internal reasons. I cannot say about the experience of others with their new dmg moris, but we've nothing but positive things to say about them.

If you wish to understand our reasons please fell free to pm, or ask specific questions and i can try to answer. Of course we don't have the machine in house yet so i cannot give you usage data with our cycles, but my friends company also purhased one, and they are delighted. They were a hermle customer with almost half a dozen hermles in one of their r&d facilities, they purchased two dmu50s after a 6 month long evaluation.

Naresh

Sent from my SM-T825 using Tapatalk

cameraman · Jan 7, 2018

Minor point...

DMU - A Milling by DMG MORI

^^^ As far as I am aware the DMU-50 3rd generation is not yet sold in the USA.

[To my dubious eye, the DMU 50 3rd generation is a really substantial improvement over the DMU-50 older, slower, smaller, weaker, lighter, less thermally controlled model.].

In the US DMG Mori would rather sell you a DMU 65- monoblock (package/special) with most everything thrown in for about $300K . I wonder if the DMU50 3rd Gen. does step on the toes a bit of the DMU-65 monoblock, cuz if you don't need the extra Z of the DMU-65 Mb the DMU 50 3rd gen seems like a super alternative where you save yourself $100K (which is always nice). A "universal" machine in vein of Deckle-Maho; for pottering around and being a bit more hands on/prototyping/small scale production seems, pretty sweet and yet you get a very "Grown up" control in the form of the Heidenhain TNC 640? I think DMG-Mori in the USA are very aware of mistakes in the past and are not going to be completely idle in closing critical gaps. There is a NEW US DMG Mori president...

https://us.dmgmori.com/blob/502182/.../dmg-mori-usa-management-change-2017-data.pdf

@Kase, so you will probably have to find European users to get a "firm" answer on that.

Locally in Rocky mountain region (Triad were bought by DMG Mori) and they are really good. But that's more direct and local support.

Real technical support for Hermle would have to come from Germany (in our region).

Not sure how Estonia is when it comes to machine tools and vendors and local support etc. But at least it's in the EU. (European Union). But still a really long way away from Germany lol!

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Random thought: What is the actual price of the Hermle C250? Cuz the DMU 50 3rd gen is about $170k to $200K and beyond depending on options? So is a Hermle C250 about $260K base price? Wondering what the deal is with the large gear on the A axis trunion/worm gear where they state "Can have access to the gear?" (like its exposed somewhere????). Does that mean I can hit it with the correct size of rubber mallet or dead blow hammer ;-).

implmex · Jan 7, 2018

Hi again All:
A couple of the negative reviews I described in post #6:
They are easily findable with a Google search.

"Black SheepSeptember 30, 2015 at 5:43 pmI worked for Ellison selling the Mori product line for many years. I was very happy with the quality of the Mori product. I now compete against Mori/DMG. In 20 years of servicing and selling cnc equipment I’ve never seen anything like this. Almost every user I visit says….. “I’ve had terrible service and support” “The machine doesn’t do what the salesmen said” “I threatened to ship the machine back” “it’s not as accurate as they said it was” the list goes on and on. They have a big quality problem. I don’t know if they will ever recover. Best thing that ever happened to that Korean builder and some of the older Japanese builders. FYI most of the Ellison Employees want to stay with Ellison. What does that say about the Mori/DMG management? Are you a Red, Yellow or Green employee (red is bad)?"

And here's a link to a PM thread:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...2-million-dollar-dmg-mori-dmu65-lemon-303598/

I know you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, but this sounds pretty alarming to me.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

cameraman · Jan 7, 2018

implmex said:
Hi again All:
A couple of the negative reviews I described in post #6:
They are easily findable with a Google search.

"Black SheepSeptember 30, 2015 at 5:43 pmI worked for Ellison selling the Mori product line for many years. I was very happy with the quality of the Mori product. I now compete against Mori/DMG. In 20 years of servicing and selling cnc equipment I’ve never seen anything like this. Almost every user I visit says….. “I’ve had terrible service and support” “The machine doesn’t do what the salesmen said” “I threatened to ship the machine back” “it’s not as accurate as they said it was” the list goes on and on. They have a big quality problem. I don’t know if they will ever recover. Best thing that ever happened to that Korean builder and some of the older Japanese builders. FYI most of the Ellison Employees want to stay with Ellison. What does that say about the Mori/DMG management? Are you a Red, Yellow or Green employee (red is bad)?"

And here's a link to a PM thread:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...2-million-dollar-dmg-mori-dmu65-lemon-303598/

I know you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, but this sounds pretty alarming to me.
Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
www.vancouverwireedm.com

Well as I always say, "When the world gives you lemons... Just throw them over the f*cking fence"...

That must really suck to be making payments on a really messed up new machine.

I wonder if DMG Mori took the machine away off their shop floor?

The problem with some of these threads you never find out what happened in the end. I never fully understood the Design engineering of the DMU 65 Mb with the massive unsupported cantilevered head... Free span of almost 1 meter and the whole top assembly is driven in X by a "Rubber band". Although the problems that they seem to have had are software related (perhaps?).

Maybe the DMU 50 3rd gen is easier to manage in Germany/Europe/EU? Much less to go wrong.

nsharma · Jan 8, 2018

cameraman said:
Minor point...

DMU - A Milling by DMG MORI

^^^ As far as I am aware the DMU-50 3rd generation is not yet sold in the USA.

[To my dubious eye, the DMU 50 3rd generation is a really substantial improvement over the DMU-50 older, slower, smaller, weaker, lighter, less thermally controlled model.].

In the US DMG Mori would rather sell you a DMU 65- monoblock (package/special) with most everything thrown in for about $300K . I wonder if the DMU50 3rd Gen. does step on the toes a bit of the DMU-65 monoblock, cuz if you don't need the extra Z of the DMU-65 Mb the DMU 50 3rd gen seems like a super alternative where you save yourself $100K (which is always nice). A "universal" machine in vein of Deckle-Maho; for pottering around and being a bit more hands on/prototyping/small scale production seems, pretty sweet and yet you get a very "Grown up" control in the form of the Heidenhain TNC 640? I think DMG-Mori in the USA are very aware of mistakes in the past and are not going to be completely idle in closing critical gaps. There is a NEW US DMG Mori president...

https://us.dmgmori.com/blob/502182/.../dmg-mori-usa-management-change-2017-data.pdf

@Kase, so you will probably have to find European users to get a "firm" answer on that.

Locally in Rocky mountain region (Triad were bought by DMG Mori) and they are really good. But that's more direct and local support.

Real technical support for Hermle would have to come from Germany (in our region).

Not sure how Estonia is when it comes to machine tools and vendors and local support etc. But at least it's in the EU. (European Union). But still a really long way away from Germany lol!

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Random thought: What is the actual price of the Hermle C250? Cuz the DMU 50 3rd gen is about $170k to $200K and beyond depending on options? So is a Hermle C250 about $260K base price? Wondering what the deal is with the large gear on the A axis trunion/worm gear where they state "Can have access to the gear?" (like its exposed somewhere????). Does that mean I can hit it with the correct size of rubber mallet or dead blow hammer ;-).

Eric,

You're right. The 3rd gen is not on their US site. However, from the specs, it will run circles around the Hermle. Just to quote: Hermle c250 is not available with continuous 5 axis machining, but with indexed 5th axis. Its base price is a tad bit lower than the DMU, but when you add the 5th axis table, a 15k spindle you get a machine thats around 203k w.r.t. the dmu which for the base machine is 174k. Then the movement of Hermle is 600/550/450mm, the DMU is 650x520x475. The Hermle has rapids of 35m/min whereas DMU is 42m/min (and that includes cutting feeds of 42m/min). Both have the same table load, but the table dia of hermle is 450mm, and that of DMU is 650. There is a huge difference in the table of DMU, which is a geared direct drive, whereas the hermle is a worm wheel (read: yearly maintenance).

The DMU we've ordered is with 60tools, table and control is set for automation, the control is Siemens 840SL, with an iso 40 spindle, 20bar tsc, scrapper type chip conveyor, glass scales and thermal stabilization for all axis, 3d set, laser tool probe, and part probe. The dmu's structure is a mono-block casting of around 7.5tons.

This new machine will be used for our production, whereas the current 3 axis DMC will be used for R&D.

@Kase, Its your money, so just as we did our homework, you'll need to do that. Perhaps, all the figures above are meaningless if you are 2000km from the nearest service, or your service guy is incompetent. In our case all the factors worked out in the favor of DMG-MORI.

Naresh

Kase · Jan 8, 2018

Thank you Marcus for valuable input! It is indeed difficult to make comprehensive conclusion about the company after sales service level and behaviour, because in different countries reps level can be different. However, if something smells too oftenly and too much like s... then it is tending to be a s...

Kase · Jan 8, 2018

CNCBurnout said:
I program on only Hermles at work and I really enjoy the machines and have no real complaints.

It is indeed very difficult to find any critical opinion or feedback about a) Hermles and b) Heidehain. Everyone seems to be happy with those two.

Kase · Jan 8, 2018

nsharma said:
We made a very deliberate analysis of the available options for 5 axis machines last year, including the hermle c250, we finally choose the new dmu50, but decided to get it in 2018 due to our internal reasons. I cannot say about the experience of others with their new dmg moris, but we've nothing but positive things to say about them.

If you wish to understand our reasons please fell free to pm, or ask specific questions and i can try to answer. Of course we don't have the machine in house yet so i cannot give you usage data with our cycles, but my friends company also purhased one, and they are delighted. They were a hermle customer with almost half a dozen hermles in one of their r&d facilities, they purchased two dmu50s after a 6 month long evaluation.

Naresh

Sent from my SM-T825 using Tapatalk

Thank you Naresh for valuable feedback!
It seems that there are many different opinions on DMUs. Our main concern was is the machine stable enough for stainless and mild steel machining? The Hermles have much higher material removal rate, at least on the paper. The table of the DMU50 is rather big so we assumed that with HSK-A 63 tool holder it can do serious work. However, the total weight of the machine is not too big. Could please tell which options did you choose and why (coolant pressure, tools magazine size, spindel type, tool measuring system)? It would help us a lot to make final decision. Many thanks!

Kase · Jan 8, 2018

cameraman said:
Minor point...

DMU - A Milling by DMG MORI

^^^ As far as I am aware the DMU-50 3rd generation is not yet sold in the USA.

[To my dubious eye, the DMU 50 3rd generation is a really substantial improvement over the DMU-50 older, slower, smaller, weaker, lighter, less thermally controlled model.].

In the US DMG Mori would rather sell you a DMU 65- monoblock (package/special) with most everything thrown in for about $300K . I wonder if the DMU50 3rd Gen. does step on the toes a bit of the DMU-65 monoblock, cuz if you don't need the extra Z of the DMU-65 Mb the DMU 50 3rd gen seems like a super alternative where you save yourself $100K (which is always nice). A "universal" machine in vein of Deckle-Maho; for pottering around and being a bit more hands on/prototyping/small scale production seems, pretty sweet and yet you get a very "Grown up" control in the form of the Heidenhain TNC 640? I think DMG-Mori in the USA are very aware of mistakes in the past and are not going to be completely idle in closing critical gaps. There is a NEW US DMG Mori president...

https://us.dmgmori.com/blob/502182/.../dmg-mori-usa-management-change-2017-data.pdf

@Kase, so you will probably have to find European users to get a "firm" answer on that.

Locally in Rocky mountain region (Triad were bought by DMG Mori) and they are really good. But that's more direct and local support.

Real technical support for Hermle would have to come from Germany (in our region).

Not sure how Estonia is when it comes to machine tools and vendors and local support etc. But at least it's in the EU. (European Union). But still a really long way away from Germany lol!

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Random thought: What is the actual price of the Hermle C250? Cuz the DMU 50 3rd gen is about $170k to $200K and beyond depending on options? So is a Hermle C250 about $260K base price? Wondering what the deal is with the large gear on the A axis trunion/worm gear where they state "Can have access to the gear?" (like its exposed somewhere????). Does that mean I can hit it with the correct size of rubber mallet or dead blow hammer ;-).

Thank you for comprehensive feedback!
The reason why we are bothering you guys in US with this is because we havent found in Europe such a good cnc tech.blog. You have so many good posts and blogers here with valuable feedback. Other than that we can get a medium level DMG service within a day and high top specialists from Germany in 1-3 days for a 70 €/h rate. Hermle service point is 260 km from us and response rate within 24 hours. However, this is all still only on paper.
The price for the Hermle C250 and DMU50 3rd Gen. with all needed extras is for about 260-270K € (incl. laser tool measuring, Heidenhain, 18 000 rpm spindel with HSK, 40 bar through spindel coolant, measuring probe + transport/training/installation) And both machines are simultaneous 5-Axis machines (someone claimed here that C250 is not).

cameraman · Jan 8, 2018

rlockwood said:
The answer is always Hermle..

You guys have an incredible outfit...

OK so IS Hermle the right answer if your local vendors have the technical capability of a devolved squirrel (when it comes to a sim 5 axis Hermle), but actually might be very competent with more regular Fanuc 3 axis systems?

So does Hermle USA/Germany offer the ability to bridge any gaps locally, that there might be?

To be blunt, can you buy a Hermle machine from "Idiots" and still do well?

Serious question/inquiry?

Cheers,

Eric

toolsteel · Jan 8, 2018

No experience with the specific model of Hermle you are looking at. Plenty of experience with a C600U. Hermle is rock solid in my book. To the best of my knowledge the "M" in DMG stands for Maho. Many years ago we had a few Maho's in our plant. The reputation that they earned is enough that 20 years later saying the "M" word will cause some people to give you the finger and not sit at the same table with you for lunch. I assume the DMG is really more Mori than anything else....regardless......until they drop the "M"....I dont want one.

rlockwood · Jan 8, 2018

cameraman said:
You guys have an incredible outfit...

OK so IS Hermle the right answer if your local vendors have the technical capability of a devolved squirrel (when it comes to a sim 5 axis Hermle), but actually might be very competent with more regular Fanuc 3 axis systems?

So does Hermle USA/Germany offer the ability to bridge any gaps locally, that there might be?

To be blunt, can you buy a Hermle machine from "Idiots" and still do well?

Serious question/inquiry?

Cheers,

Eric

In our case, which is probably the norm; we purchased from a local vendor. All maintenance\support\applications comes from Hermle USA out of Chicago, with the occasional thing pinging back to Germany. It's working well for us so far.

cameraman · Jan 8, 2018

rlockwood said:
In our case, which is probably the norm; we purchased from a local vendor. All maintenance\support\applications comes from Hermle USA out of Chicago, with the occasional thing pinging back to Germany. It's working well for us so far.

Fantastic THANK YOU!

(Very good to know).

Can you afford a Hermle C25...?

^^^In this set of interviews they try to make out the C250 is made from all the same "Ingredients" at the same factory as all the other machines. I guess one difference is the trunion is not dual drive (not an issue perhaps for low torque/not super heavy fixtures that are super dynamic/"fast" moves on the trunion). The implication is the precisions tolerances,and surface finishes of parts coming off that machine should be the same as the 'High performance machine". So they claim that having a standard configuration with limited options is how they make it more affordable and hence HERMLE get to do larger volume and sneak down the base of the "Pyramid" in terms of larger number of sales?

Locally for Hermle... Pricing gets a little sticky as the prevailing attitude seems to be "If you have to ask, then "Darling" you can't afford it"...
Like going to Hermes store with significant other... "Ohhh the orange baseball cap is $645.00 ... lovely" (inching sideways out the store... "What's a Birkin bag?"... (start running) ).

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are folks locally that order C400 (s) and seem to be doing very well with them. (I was just wondering How?).

rlockwood · Jan 8, 2018

nsharma said:
Eric,

You're right. The 3rd gen is not on their US site. However, from the specs, it will run circles around the Hermle. Just to quote: Hermle c250 is not available with continuous 5 axis machining, but with indexed 5th axis.

I don't believe this is correct; i'm fairly sure the c250 is indeed simultaneous 5x capable, but never really looked at it too closely.

DMU50 3rd Gen. or Hermle C250

Plastic

Diamond

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Aluminum

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Diamond

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Aluminum

Plastic

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Titanium

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