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Do "Lemon Laws" or similar apply to new cnc machine tools?

sirAIG

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 10, 2019
Location
State College
So, I have a new mill from a well known manufacturer that shall remain unnamed for now. Well fairly new, ~ 9 months old. 155 feed cutting hours. I have had now 4 or 5 warranty issues that have put the machine down for a day or more. I feel I cant even trust the machine or take on more that could jeopardize my business if/when something else happens.

Are there any laws, etc that apply to machine tools in this type of scenario relating to buybacks, etc.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

EDITED: I realize how my post comes across as "I WANT THIS MACHINE BOUGHT BACK NOW!!" That is not the case, I was merely looking for information and insight from others with far more experience then I.
 
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So, I have a new mill from a well known manufacturer that shall remain unnamed for now. Well fairly new, ~ 9 months old. 155 feed cutting hours. I have had now 4 or 5 warranty issues that have put the machine down for a day or more. I am at wits end, I feel I cant even trust the machine or take on more that could jeopardize my business if/when something else happens.

Are there any laws, etc that apply to machine tools in this type of scenario to force a buyback?

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

Unless the 4 or 5 warranty calls have occupied and caused the machine to be down an inordinate amount of time, then I'd have to say only running 155 hours in 9 months is what's going to jeopardize your business.
 
A word of advice: in your followup posts to this thread, leave out your emotions and any possible solutions you may come up with (like a buyback). Let us do that (trust us, we will). Just give us the raw, unadulterated facts, unless you want to be completely picked apart (such is the nature of internet forums). Also don't feel compelled to respond to EVERY reply in this thread. If it doesn't apply, ignore it.

Let's start over.

You've got a 9 month old machine, purchased new, with 155 cut hours.

4 or 5 warranty issues. Well, which one is it? 4 or 5? What were these issues and when did each occur? How did your dealer fix these issues and how long did each service call take?
 
Magnusson moss act .... google it

Yes you can get dealers to buy machines back "IF" you can prove there a POS .. I have had 4 machines pulled from my shop and well its normally not a easy thing to do if the machine is non fixable as a shop owner you have no choice ,,, but if your trying to get them to remove a machine do to small stuff they can fix in a day or two your just being a ASS. The dealer is not the one that built the machines and if there welling and capable of fixing it let them do it ,,,

You well want to document "EVERY" thing ,, if you can work with them on Emails and if you have to talk to them on the phone write down the conversation as soon as your off the phone ,, keep track of all times and days you talk to them and when they come to work on a machine get them to write up what they did.

If your only needing the machine for that few hours I would give them time to get it fixed , if its something that can be fixed,

I have had a lot of new machines over the 38+ years in the trade and most needed work in the first few month and non have made it to a year without having something fixed on them ,,
 
Magnusson moss act .... google it

Yes you can get dealers to buy machines back "IF" you can prove there a POS .. I have had 4 machines pulled from my shop and well its normally not a easy thing to do if the machine is non fixable as a shop owner you have no choice ,,, but if your trying to get them to remove a machine do to small stuff they can fix in a day or two your just being a ASS. The dealer is not the one that built the machines and if there welling and capable of fixing it let them do it ,,,

You well want to document "EVERY" thing ,, if you can work with them on Emails and if you have to talk to them on the phone write down the conversation as soon as your off the phone ,, keep track of all times and days you talk to them and when they come to work on a machine get them to write up what they did.

If your only needing the machine for that few hours I would give them time to get it fixed , if its something that can be fixed,

I have had a lot of new machines over the 38+ years in the trade and most needed work in the first few month and non have made it to a year without having something fixed on them ,,

I believe they have 3 tries to fix the same problem, if they don't fix it the third time they have to buy it back. I don't know how it applies to different issues.
 
We make our money on the design end of the parts that get machined. Working intimately with a single local company, providing extremely fast turn times while designing the parts to be made as well. The spindle hours, or lack there of, are not an issue for us. I do understand most shops need to operate in a way that keeps the spindles turning, and understand how that looks suspect.

Please be aware, I'm not even trying to go down this path yet. I am merely trying to get information IF that's where things need to end up.

1st issue, short in the e-stop circuit. ~1 month in, fixed withing 2 business days.

2nd issue, IO/Board communications being lost, causing machine to randomly shut down in the middle of whatever it was doing. This issue still is not confidently fixed as they were never able to diagnose its cause. They updated software and I have not had the problem since, BUT it was also 4 months into owning it until it reared its head. I'm not convinced it wont show up again.

3rd issue, cooked coolant pump (100% not my doing, sump has never dropped below ~75% fill)

4th issue, bolts for part of tool changer assembly loosened/fell out entirely. I'm working to fix this as we speak, even thought I shouldn't have to. But they are going to be following up with a tech. Happened this morning.

5th issue that is in process, significant issues in surface finish for any y-axis involved feeds. It is night and day difference between x and y. The y-axis surface finish left in even plastics and aluminum with brand new tooling, solid work holding, speeds/feeds, etc is honestly unacceptable for a new machine.



I may be an "ass" as these are little issues, but my warranty is up in 3 months. How many more of these little issues is acceptable before its not longer me just being an ass?


Just because the machine is low hours, doesn't mean it does not cause my business to suffer when I need it and it's down.


For some perspective - Weekly I am called upon to come take a look at something, design a part/assembly, and have finish product back to customers hand in 2-5 days. I purchased into a brand new mill as I was at the point in my business where the expense of a new machine and having some security in that it wouldn't need constant attention, was justifiable. For someone operating out of a 3,000sq/ft basement shop, this was a huge commitment.


How would you all feel/what would you be doing to "CYA" of sorts and make sure you're taken care of?

Perhaps I was just flat out wrong to assume I could get a year or two out a machine without it having 4+ problems the first 9 months. I knew it wasn't going to get used as much as it should/could, which made me feel like it should be even easier to have expected smooth operations for a while.
 
E-stop issue, Y-axis issue, bolts falling out, basement shop...

Sounds like we're talking about a Tormach.

Not the answer you're going to want to hear, but I think you're just going to have to live with it. These machines have a kind of shitty reputation for a reason.

Once the machine is out of warranty, you're going to be paying out of pocket, but at least the parts are relatively cheap and easy to replace.

Sorry, no good solution here. The machine is just too inexpensive to begin with to even begin discussing lemon law, because a lawyer would cost more than the machine.
 
E-stop issue, Y-axis issue, bolts falling out, basement shop...

Sounds like we're talking about a Tormach.

Not the answer you're going to want to hear, but I think you're just going to have to live with it. These machines have a kind of shitty reputation for a reason.

Once the machine is out of warranty, you're going to be paying out of pocket, but at least the parts are relatively cheap and easy to replace.

Sorry, no good solution here. The machine is just too inexpensive to begin with to even begin discussing lemon law, because a lawyer would cost more than the machine.

You should know by now when you assume things it just make you look like an ass. But hey, thanks for the helpful information. I'm sure Haas isn't a good enough brand for the elitists to provide some insight to.
 
Contact your state consumer affairs office as they are the enforcement arm for these matters.

Ask for information needed to insure you collect all information needed as well as how you are protected.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
Contact your state consumer affairs office as they are the enforcement arm for these matters.

Ask for information needed to insure you collect all information needed as well as how you are protected.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Consumer affairs office or Magnusson-Moss act are no help. OP runs business, not private consumer with personal use.

Magnusson-Moss act:
A "consumer" is a buyer of consumer goods for personal use. A buyer of consumer products for resale is not a consumer
 
He who has the most money wins in these situations. Lawyers cost money and to get out of this, you need a good lawyer who understands UCC law.


If the seller is reputable and sees all the issues you are having, they should be talking to you about what they are going to do to help you. That is assuming we are discussing an actual commercial machine tool that is expected to machine like one and be reliable in production.
 
If you would actually use it, then all the issues should get worked out before the warranty has expired. All I can say is try and run it as much as you can for the next 3 months, in the hope that any remaining bugs get worked out.
 
If you would actually use it, then all the issues should get worked out before the warranty has expired. All I can say is try and run it as much as you can for the next 3 months, in the hope that any remaining bugs get worked out.

I would suggest to just make anything to get the spindle hours up.

From a dealers perspective, your type of application is dreaded. Not using it enough to actually work the bugs out but still complaining about issues. Not saying you should have those problems but if you were actually running the spindle at a normal number of hours, your problems would likely have been all discovered and resolved. 155 hrs in 9mo. is only a little more than 4hrs. per week. You are still basically in the first month of running your machine.
 
Aside from the tool changer bolts everything seems to point to your incoming electrical. Have you had your lines checked for proper consistent clean levels? Working in Asia and Africa where power is just dirty I see these problems more than I care to count.

Are you running Delta or Y? Phase converter ot true three phase? Or is it a 110V machine? Proper breaker to the machine? Proper wire gage?

Just some things to look at before making a stink with the vendor. That would suck if they found 180V to the cabinet with undersized breaker!!!

The tool changer could just be an overlooked assembly item. That's just the nature of mechanics.
 
If you aren't satisfied I suppose you could mention you are a member in good standing on a well known machinist forum that has 25,000 or so members and while you have not named names you might start if they don't make things right.
 
Why do I have a feeling said machine is not Japanese or European.....:stirthepot:

Because the OP said it was HAAS a few posts down. ;)

FWIW I would be negotiating an extension of the warranty due to your issues combined with very low hours. If they can't/won't accommodate at least start running the piss out of it and being a general PITA for the next few months to get this stuff resolved in a hurry.
 
I have had a few problems with some of our Haas machines when they were new, calling my HFO was little or no help. I wrote and emailed a list of problems, manes, dated, and the serial number of my machine along with what I would accept to every Haas email both Factory and HFO. Each time I have been able to get the attention of someone that would help me cure my issues ( the ones pertaining to the machine anyhow). Letters are better than phone calls at this point.
 
You should know by now when you assume things it just make you look like an ass. But hey, thanks for the helpful information. I'm sure Haas isn't a good enough brand for the elitists to provide some insight to.

Okay, my mistake then. So what?

For someone operating out of a 3,000sq/ft basement shop, this was a huge commitment.

Not sure how you got a Haas into a basement (and seriously who has a 3,000 SF basement? I thought that was a typo) but kudos then for having the world's largest basement with a side entrance.
 








 
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