Does anyone have experience working with 8AL-1MO-1V Titanium?

Ive got a product that I am developing that I want the properties of Titanium but I don't need the ultimate strength. With the added 2% of aluminum and the few percent less Vanadium that 8-1-1 has, I am hoping that this machines better than 6AL-4V. Anyone have a side by side comparison of both how it machines, how stable it is, and is it as hard on tools?

-Chris

CPM2014 said:

Ive got a product that I am developing that I want the properties of Titanium but I don't need the ultimate strength. With the added 2% of aluminum and the few percent less Vanadium that 8-1-1 has, I am hoping that this machines better than 6AL-4V. Anyone have a side by side comparison of both how it machines, how stable it is, and is it as hard on tools?

-Chris

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dont know type but do know chemical resistant titanium has less strength easier to machine but has a nasty habit of sticking to cutting tools.... talking sticking to flutes of drills and mills and cause cause serious problems if not watched for

DMF_TomB said:

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dont know type but do know chemical resistant titanium has less strength easier to machine but has a nasty habit of sticking to cutting tools.... talking sticking to flutes of drills and mills and cause cause serious problems if not watched for

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Yeah, Ive worked with some of the higher purity Ti's before and it sucks. The 8-1-1 has higher percent of alloy which makes me think it will be easier than 6AL-4v but....

CPM2014 said:

Ive got a product that I am developing that I want the properties of Titanium but I don't need the ultimate strength. With the added 2% of aluminum and the few percent less Vanadium that 8-1-1 has, I am hoping that this machines better than 6AL-4V. Anyone have a side by side comparison of both how it machines, how stable it is, and is it as hard on tools?

-Chris

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I'm kinda interested in this too...


But first thing that comes to mind what machine are you using to do this (if you don't mind me asking) or at least torque/power cuves etc. rpm.

Size of parts (just vague ball park).

And maybe the kinds of cuts you want to make 'cuz even these days apparently a Tormach can cut through "Titanium" like "Butter"... Or is that butter stored at -273 degrees Kelvin?


Stupid question, ever considered carbon fiber, I don't know what your application is. We have get to CF at some point whether we like it or not.

Hope Pm forum finds some good answers for you. (so far so good/seems promising).

Think firearm components. Carbon is a no-go.

We are a for profit CNC machine shop so machines wont/shouldn't be a factor

CPM2014 said:

Think firearm components. Carbon is a no-go.

We are a for profit CNC machine shop so machines wont/shouldn't be a factor

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I'll preface this with I don't cut 8AL-1MO-1V Titanium (yet) lol.

Titanium Alloy 8-1-1 / 8Al-1Mo-1V - Aircraft Materials

Normally used on fan blades etc. for aircraft engine components.


Normally with something more like Ti-6Al-4v it's all about keeping the surface of the cut well below 550 degrees Celsius as that's where that material starts to play havoc with Carbide.

Normally the biggest consideration (as I'm sure you know (teaching proverbial grand mothers to such something) ) is to remove as much heat as possible from the cut.

ONLY really practical method is (for most) is high pressure TSC, like 1000 psi, and loads and loads and loads of flood coolant / overhead/ nozzle etc. [for aerospace one has to be "mindful" of introducing chlorides etc. as that can cause future surface cracking etc.].


I think the problem with your 8AL-1MO-1V Titanium is lower transition temperatures at about 450 degrees Celsius.

The makino webinar entitled " What’s Hot and What’s Not in Titanium" (Thursday, September 22, 2011) has some useful advice on tool life and technique. [Can't link to it directly as PM "robot" doesn't like the string / url for some reason].


Machine Tool Webinars and Events | Makino


Most of the useful info on prioritizing stuff is about 15 mins in. Of course they want to flog a T2 machine at the same time lol. But good stuff to pull focus on though.

This webinar is kinda useful in the sense for pulling focus on priorities of things like radial engagement, chip load, axial depth of cut, surface speed etc. for GREATLY extending tool life between three and six times (from course metal removal to light roughing ) … but honestly mainly through ridiculous amounts of coolant / heat removal... even in the case of alloys like 5553 that seems to be the way.


I know that's a bit of an extrapolation on an extrapolation but I used to be professional materials scientist and seems lower heat transition temperatures and phases with 8AL-1MO-1V might cause more problems (need to verify that / phase diagrams Alpha alloy versus Beta … blah blah blah).

I can dig around... 'Cuz some of these alloys at certain tipping points compositionally can get really screwy !(sometimes do the exact opposite of what you might normally suppose) Little shaky/flakey until I/we can find better "data" and experience on that alloy.

HOVEWER seems that the peeps that make large 5 axis aerospace parts are going to be your "goto" guys on this as that alloy as I say is principally used for big jet engine fan blades and the like.

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@CPM Dumb, question are you doing all milling or are these gun like components mill -turn etc. ?

I do pick up on your point about the strength of the material causing problems also.

Maybe later figure out the real difference in the alloy as lower temperature transition temperature coupled with higher strength of material may make it worse to machine than Ti-6Al-4v (??? Like what Tomb is saying about sticking to tools etc. )… work hardening and annealing issues through heat build up + re-cutting chips. Seems TSC is pretty damn important for that.

cameraman said:

@CPM Dumb, question are you doing all milling or are these gun like components mill -turn etc. ?

I do pick up on your point about the strength of the material causing problems also.

Maybe later figure out the real difference in the alloy as lower temperature transition temperature coupled with higher strength of material may make it worse to machine than Ti-6Al-4v (??? Like what Tomb is saying about sticking to tools etc. )… work hardening and annealing issues through heat build up + re-cutting chips. Seems TSC is pretty damn important for that.

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Its all mill work,

I think this is all a pointless venture as all of my go-to Ti suppliers basically said good luck with finding 8-1-1. Apparently its mostly made to order from the mill and a 50-60 week leadtime!!

If anyone has a source for plate or bar stock, please let me know

CPM2014 said:

Ive got a product that I am developing that I want the properties of Titanium but I don't need the ultimate strength. With the added 2% of aluminum and the few percent less Vanadium that 8-1-1 has, I am hoping that this machines better than 6AL-4V. Anyone have a side by side comparison of both how it machines, how stable it is, and is it as hard on tools?

-Chris

Click to expand...

Gun parts. What kind of gun parts? AR receiver, revolver or pistol frame, its definitely not a barrel for any of the previous.
Will the cost of material and machining this part justify the means? Its hard to sell something as a small shop with a big price. As previous mentioned, Makino has a good tutorial, but oil and semi-synthetic oils perform better than most water solubles, while taking light radial cuts as in trochoidal milling minimizes the heat build up at the cutting edge and makes short work of any milling. Turning is the same and both require much lowered speeds and feeds.
I worked with custom rifle manufacturer in S. Carolina and they were using 15-4PH for the receiver, super tough and corrosion resistant.
There are a lot of manufacturers using various stainless's, but very few are using titanium for the reasons in my first paragraph.

EDIT: I contacted Carpenter, and that material doesn't come up in a search, which is pretty strange. Although it is a real material, it is NOT used much.....otherwise they WOULD have it, they usually have everything in stock. Choosing a material is one of the first things in designing, building anything, and choosing something like this material when there is none doesn't make sense. I did check and they have unobtanium in stock and it has better properties!!!
I think the people handling this site is spamming everyone?

john-san said:

Gun parts. What kind of gun parts? AR receiver, revolver or pistol frame, its definitely not a barrel for any of the previous.
Will the cost of material and machining this part justify the means? Its hard to sell something as a small shop with a big price. As previous mentioned, Makino has a good tutorial, but oil and semi-synthetic oils perform better than most water solubles, while taking light radial cuts as in trochoidal milling minimizes the heat build up at the cutting edge and makes short work of any milling. Turning is the same and both require much lowered speeds and feeds.
I worked with custom rifle manufacturer in S. Carolina and they were using 15-4PH for the receiver, super tough and corrosion resistant.
There are a lot of manufacturers using various stainless's, but very few are using titanium for the reasons in my first paragraph.

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Thank you for your input, it is appreciated. For the sake of this thread lets assume I know what im doing

john-san said:

Gun parts. What kind of gun parts? AR receiver, revolver or pistol frame, its definitely not a barrel for any of the previous.
Will the cost of material and machining this part justify the means? Its hard to sell something as a small shop with a big price. As previous mentioned, Makino has a good tutorial, but oil and semi-synthetic oils perform better than most water solubles, while taking light radial cuts as in trochoidal milling minimizes the heat build up at the cutting edge and makes short work of any milling. Turning is the same and both require much lowered speeds and feeds.
I worked with custom rifle manufacturer in S. Carolina and they were using 15-4PH for the receiver, super tough and corrosion resistant.
There are a lot of manufacturers using various stainless's, but very few are using titanium for the reasons in my first paragraph.

EDIT: I contacted Carpenter, and that material doesn't come up in a search, which is pretty strange. Although it is a real material, it is NOT used much.....otherwise they WOULD have it, they usually have everything in stock. Choosing a material is one of the first things in designing, building anything, and choosing something like this material when there is none doesn't make sense. I did check and they have unobtanium in stock and it has better properties!!!
I think the people handling this site is spamming everyone?

Click to expand...

I was imagining a silencer or something or "Gun like" but not necessarily a "gun" or "gun" as we know it. Most of the references for that material correlate to army piercing systems for some exotic munitions and also a exotic armor.

I was in NM for ten to twelve years and that scenario for "Cold Warrior" "star wars " weapons still persists... + continued development.

I'm wondering if this material can fedexed from Russia or something lol.

CPM2014 said:

Its all mill work,

I think this is all a pointless venture as all of my go-to Ti suppliers basically said good luck with finding 8-1-1. Apparently its mostly made to order from the mill and a 50-60 week leadtime!!

If anyone has a source for plate or bar stock, please let me know

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SHEET / PLATE (Ti 8Al 1Mo 1V) | SHEET / PLATE (Ti 8Al 1Mo 1V)

These guys out of Connecticut ?

Magellan metals.




How much do you need … Sounds like you need some samples and then you order a bunch ?


The basic application idea is to find an easier (to machine) titanium alloy that does not have to be stronger?

It doesn't have to be Ti-811 ?

Tooling is always going to be an issue for large volume/production. [Stating the bleeding obvious , but still doesn't stop pretty big projects from going "Splat" into that one, and then thinking why did we ever design a product around Titanium in the first place ?].

cameraman said:

SHEET / PLATE (Ti 8Al 1Mo 1V) | SHEET / PLATE (Ti 8Al 1Mo 1V)

These guys out of Connecticut ?

Magellan metals.






How much do you need … Sounds like you need some samples and then you order a bunch ?


The basic application idea is to find an easier (to machine) titanium alloy that does not have to be stronger?

It doesn't have to be Ti-811 ?

Tooling is always going to be an issue for large volume/production. [Stating the bleeding obvious , but still doesn't stop pretty big projects from going "Splat" into that one, and then thinking why did we ever design a product around Titanium in the first place ?].

Click to expand...

Magellan doesn't have any and they don't know when they could. It seems as though everyone lists the material on their site just to make it seem like they have a larger inventory.

It does not have to be stronger than 6AL-4v. I was looking specifically at 8-1-1 do to it having higher amounts of Aluminum, and less vanadium. Research shows it as having much less creep as well. More stable, lighter and easier to machine (maybe).

I should add that we are currently machining these from 6AL-4v and are having issues with movement. We are having to anneal, straighten, rough machine, HT, stress relieve, and then finish machining. The biggest problem is movement several days later

CPM2014 said:

I should add that we are currently machining these from 6AL-4v and are having issues with movement. We are having to anneal, straighten, rough machine, HT, stress relieve, and then finish machining. The biggest problem is movement several days later

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This is starting to sound increasingly familiar.

Doe the article in question have thick walls relative to a thin back / broad cavity ? Like it's basically a large cell phone sized object with a 7 - 9 mm pocket with gun like grips on either side ?


Locked in stresses and then after finish machining when left on a shelf to be inspected it's out of tolerance ? Part distorts ?

That kind of thing ?

juxtaposition of comparatively thick walls and thin floors/back i.e. thin back ? Possibly ribbed ?

cameraman said:

This is starting to sound increasingly familiar.

Doe the article in question have thick walls relative to a thin back / broad cavity ? Like it's basically a large cell phone sized object with a 7 - 9 mm pocket with gun like grips on either side ?


Locked in stresses and then after finish machining when left on a shelf to be inspected it's out of tolerance ?

That kind of thing ?

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Part description is wrong but result is correct. Part is finished machined in tolerance and then moves. We have played around with sequence of HT/Stress Relief but nothing is perfect. Im all ears for alternate suggestions

CPM2014 said:

Part description is wrong but result is correct. Part is finished machined in tolerance and then moves. We have played around with sequence of HT/Stress Relief but nothing is perfect. Im all ears for alternate suggestions

Click to expand...

This particular problem is relevant to another group I am associated with AND it's something that can really slow things down.


Today I am on migraine drugs... So I'm a little "Out there" today, but it's worth my time to dig deep on this if I can over the next few days or so as it IS a problem that needs to be sorted. I need to learn the solution myself.

Maybe some old or young salt gives you the perfect seasoned solution in the mean time, but understanding what's what and how is definitely important. _

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Do you have rough dimensions of the stock ? And also form of "blanks" cut from the stock ?

Very approximately ?

The movement issue could also be a function of "non-optimal" machining practice. Ti, being more malleable and yet tough to cut is very sensitive to dull cutters, if you're not making every effort to keep sharp tooling in the machines you'll wind up with stress from rubbing during cutting. This can take place even during finish cuts, so resulting in parts distorting after they're been put on the shelf.

I admit to being intrigued by the properties mentioned on the Magellan site, just the mention of higher modulus and lighter weight is of interest. High Mod could lean to easier cutting and less stress imparted by cutter edges, but without actual material to play with it's moot.

cameraman said:

This particular problem is relevant to another group I am associated with AND it's something that can really slow things down.


Today I am on migraine drugs... So I'm a little "Out there" today, but it's worth my time to dig deep on this if I can over the next few days or so as it IS a problem that needs to be sorted. I need to learn the solution myself.

Maybe some old or young salt gives you the perfect seasoned solution in the mean time, but understanding what's what and how is definitely important. _

_______________________________________________________________


Do you have rough dimensions of the stock ? And also form of "blanks" cut from the stock ?

Very approximately ?

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Part size is 1" x 1.5" x 5.0" Cut from plate.
Grain direction is going the length of part. I am tempted to switch to a perpendicular grain direction as I think that might have the best results and I do not need the ultimate material properties. The "load" that this see's is a small fraction of what the material can handle. Reason for Ti is weight savings. Cannot be aluminum.

also what tool geometries are you using right now ?

'cuz I have absolutely no picture in my minds eye as to what and how you are really cutting these.

I know you are super experienced but there are also ten or 15 different variables that can be tweaked and I'm sure you have done most of those already.

Just a case of mapping out those one or two weird gotchas or weird or subtle tweaks 'cuz someone on this planet (before most of us) may have had this all mapped out already.


What is the maximum distortion dimensionally are you seeing ?

How far do you have to bring that "In tolerance" and be functionally stable ?

cameraman said:

also what tool geometries are you using right now ?

'cuz I have absolutely no picture in my minds eye as to what and how you are really cutting these.

I know you are super experienced but there are also ten or 15 different variables that can be tweaked and I'm sure you have done most of those already.

Just a case of mapping out those one or two weird gotchas or weird or subtle tweaks 'cuz someone on this planet (before most of us) may have had this all mapped out already.


What is the maximum distortion dimensionally are you seeing ?

How far do you have to bring that "In tolerance" and be functionally stable ?

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Well, I would hardly call us "super" experienced with Ti. We are a predominantly tool steel, SS, and aluminum shop.

The long dimension needs to be straight within .003", after that we get some binding and interference. half of the length is hollowed out so we have these pretty thin walls on the sides. a portion of those walls we have added internal grooves that are acting as stiffeners and that solved some of the issue. There is a section of wall that we cant change and that is where we are seeing the most movement. I hope this makes sense!!