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Does anyone use GFCI breakers on their CNC machines?

DavidScott

Diamond
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
Does anyone use GFCI breakers for their CNC machines?

I am getting a new mill, Brother, and the installation instructions spec a 30 amp earth leakage breaker. Needless to say they do cost a lot more so I am wondering what others have done. So far I have just wired my cnc mills to my PP without anything in between them, relying on the 60 amp single phase breaker to protect it all.
 
I use GFCI breakers everywhere. They are indispensable for safety. You do not need individual breakers with that capability. You only need one large one per feed. I have replaced all my old .5 amp trip breakers with the new more sensitive .03 amp trip ones. In the case of a ground fault, this master breaker will trip and cut off all power on that feed. In which case, to isolate the fault, drop all the normal breakers on that feed and one by one flip them on until the master breaker trips again. Whatever load that breaker feeds is your culprit. This single breaker method will protect all loads single or 3 phase. If however, you are using a phase converter or a generator, these must be considered a feed and will require their own GFCI breaker.
 
Our electricians put one in for our waterjet but the machine had no place for a neutral wire, I took it out. What part of Washington are you in? I will be heading to Portland in a couple days through Spokane and Wala Wala on I90
 
Our electricians put one in for our waterjet but the machine had no place for a neutral wire, I took it out. What part of Washington are you in? I will be heading to Portland in a couple days through Spokane and Wala Wala on I90

I do not understand your reasoning. If you use a GFCI breaker at the feed, you would be covered regardless if you use neutral in a machine. I however would install a neutral bus in that machine if for no other reasons than to power single phase loads, like lights, in the future.
 
To answer the question - NOPE! None on mine. I have convenience outlets on each machine that I wired separately. I would consider GFI for that.

I worked as an engineer in a million square foot pharma plant with 3 phase equipment everywhere, some cord connected, some hard wired. Never a GFI breaker on any of these.
 
I do not understand your reasoning. If you use a GFCI breaker at the feed, you would be covered regardless if you use neutral in a machine. I however would install a neutral bus in that machine if for no other reasons than to power single phase loads, like lights, in the future.

I plugged in the machine, turned it on and popped the gfi, reset and did it again, swapped in a normal breaker, tested for 2 hots and a ground, all was OK. I plugged in the machine and it works fine, perhaps there was some other problem too? A 50a gfi breaker ended up on one of our packaging machines but it needed 3 hot wires and a ground not 2 hots, 1 ground and a neutral, so it got a normal breaker too.
 
Tried having one on the 30 amp single phase circuit feeding my CM-1; it was mandated by code if I was going to have it on a plug. It would trip any time I turned the machine on, so I had to remove it, and hardwire the machine with a disconnect.
 
Tried having one on the 30 amp single phase circuit feeding my CM-1; it was mandated by code if I was going to have it on a plug. It would trip any time I turned the machine on, so I had to remove it, and hardwire the machine with a disconnect.

Yup, they are very safe, they are always tripped so you have no juice!
 
i have never considered it.

I always considered the machine as a self contained unit, if the MTB thought it needed such a thing, it would have put it in.

Nothing in code I am aware of requires gfci breakers on a hardwired piece of equipment.

Plugs that could have random things attached, sure. Even then single purpose outlets ought to have an exception

GFCI on a welder?
 
For the special kid in the class here..
Can somebody explain what is going on?
I know Mr Inspector wants something.... But why.

I recently figured out the difference between ground and neutral.
I think I get that.. Toaster.. Heating element breaks, touching
the stainless outside casing, its sitting on RUBBER feet on your
counter. You grab the toaster and get blasted. If there is a
neutral(or is it a ground, I get them confused), then the case of the
toaster is grounded, and it would have popped the breaker, and your
hair is still where you put it.

Is that correct?

So what is the ground fault thing? How does that work?
I know you need them near the sink and in the bathroom, but why?

I HATE single phase stuff, confuses me. 3 phase is simple by
comparison. Or at least I thought.. Now you throw in this ground
fault thing, and I'm back to square one.

Somebody please explain, I'm confused..
 
Hot wire to light bulb.

Neutral wire from light bulb back to source.

Ground wire from light bulb housing to system ground.

GFI monitors current flow in and out of light bulb. If current flow changes on either hot or neutral, it trips the circuit.
 
A gfi breaker measures the current coming and going through the normal current carrying conductors. In the case of single phase this would be in the ground and neutral. So it should see a net zero current flowing in these since the same amount that that’s coming is also returning. If you’re standing in the tub with the hair dryer some current might wind up flowing through you. Then the gfi device would see a current difference, less returning than coming, and shut the power off.

As others have said gfi devices are sensitive. They need to detect milliamp currents. My Brother mills generally draw like 6 amp 90% of the time. It spikes to 120 amps when the spindle ramps. I doubt a gfi breaker would do well with this.

A cnc machine should be a well grounded hunk of iron. If a wire gets loose inside it’ll short to ground. Still stay out of the bathtub with it.
 
My Brother mills generally draw like 6 amp 90% of the time. It spikes to 120 amps when the spindle ramps. I doubt a gfi breaker would do well with this.
Brother must think it will since they say the user must install a 30 amp earth leakage circuit breaker for the machine and options I have. My only concern safety wise is for the machine and it's sensitive electronics. I really don't want one as it is just another thing to cause problems, as others have noted.

When you say 6 amps is that while running a program or just idle?
 
So what is the ground fault thing? How does that work?
Normal breakers and fuses pop when the total current exceeds the limit for long enough. This will keep your wires from burning up, but says nothing about where the current is flowing.

GFCI breakers compare the outgoing current against the incoming current, and pop if there is even a very tiny imbalance (milliamps) between them. This is a definite sign that some of the current is flowing somewhere it isn't supposed to, and making its return path back to the supply through some other means. This might be another piece of equipment. It might be you.

The "green wire" (aka Equipment Grounding Conductor or EGC) is intended to intercept those stray currents, and give them a low-resistance path away. By grounding the chassis and enclosure of powered equipment, it becomes much more likely that any stray current will be intercepted by something safe, rather than passing through your hands, feet, and in between, your heart muscles. Suppose the live wire inside your old-school toaster shorts to the metal case. If the case is grounded, you will not take very much current if you put your hand on the toaster. If the case is not grounded, you will basically be putting your hand on the live wire.

A short from a live wire to ground is called a "ground fault", which a GFCI breaker will detect instantly. But GFCI breakers don't depend on EGC. They measure imbalances in supply and return currents. A lot of corded power tools are "double insulated" and they didn't require EGC green wires. GFCI breakers would work just fine with these tools, detecting if a short somehow got through the "double" layers of insulation.

I know you need them near the sink and in the bathroom, but why?
Because wet environments are where leakage currents are potentially the most lethal to human beings. Wet skin is a much better conductor than dry skin, so the human body will pass more electric current.
 
Sorry to be dense but...
How exactly does a GFCI breaker works on a 3ph/4wire system?
Without neutral and a very good likelyhood of imbalanced load, what does the breaker compare to?
 
The purpose of a GFCI breaker is to detect current leakage not over current, One is not a replacement for the other. Both over current and leakage needs to be detected. Consider that .050 ampere across your heart is the accepted amount of current to be lethal. GFCI detectors are now mandated by national code throughout Europe for both home and industry. It is the law. They must be installed. The law has been updated from the early standard of .050 amp trip to the new standard .030 amp trip. A GFCI breaker is sized by the amount of current it is rated to pass and not overheat and by the amount of imbalance current that causes it to trip.

GFCI breakers compares outgoing current to the load to the return current from the load. Return current may be present on either another phase or neutral, so it works regardless if the load is powered WTY, DELTA or single phase.
 
GFCI breakers compares outgoing current to the load to the return current from the load. Return current may be present on either another phase or neutral, so it works regardless if the load is powered WTY, DELTA or single phase.

Explain that Please!
How do you measure return current if there is no Neutral?
How does a GFCI circuit detect ground fault ( Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter ) in a 3ph Delta service?


I can see that perhaps monitoring all 3 legs where the vectorical sum of all currents must equal 0, but since all 3 phases work in conjunction, a ground fault will just even out
between all 3, which means that the sum will still be 0 no matter what flows to the ground conductor.


Honest question, ready to be edumacated ...
 








 
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