Does this spindle sound funny?
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  1. #1
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    Default Does this spindle sound funny?

    I have an old Kiwa Colt 510 and the spindle encoder finally went out. Cleaning up the area around the encoder ( hot water spray, not pressure wash ) I am curious if I got any water in the spindle cartridge. I feel like its making more noise than it did before I had to replace the encoder. Granted the sheet metal is off the head, but I wouldn't think that would make much of a difference in sound. I don't see any subsequent leaking out of the nose, so maybe no water intrusion?

    Does anyone have experience with funny spindle sounds? It FEELS like it did before the replacement...

    YouTube video of various speeds: YouTube

    Youtube video of a closeup hand spin: YouTube

    Thanks for any insight...
    -Ben

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    Forget the sound, it LOOKS funny. Like it's mother dresses it (and actually doesn't like the kid).

    OK, first I'm a little concerned about cleaning it with hot water. For one thing, most of these systems are "allergic" to water, it either can rust them, contaminate lubricants (as you're concerned about), or instigate shorting if electrical. A lot matters on HOW the water was introduced and cleaned up - why don't you elaborate on that.

    Also, does it sound different now over when you started because a lot of the housings/panels are now removed? Most of those will have some baffling or insulative effects, so that would change how the spindle sounds now.

    Last, it's an old machine of unknown use and maintenance. So the spindle bearings could be short on lube, worn out, out of balance (as an assembly), or a few other things. Ditto the drive motor, which could be a noise contributor.

    We need more info before going further...

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    Will do:

    As for its looks: Blame Kiwa. heh.

    The machine is a 1996, and I acquired it this year. Lots of crud in it, dried coolant, errant chips everywhere. Not the cleanest thing you have seen. I figured I should go through the machine and perform a first order maintenance, so I decided to change out the lubrication pressure metering fittings and flush the oiling system. 17 of those buggers later, about 30% of them are clogged. Only one line had a hint of contamination, but the others looked ok.

    To change those fittings meant some cleaning of the local area. I didnt have any coolant in the tanks, so I decided on the hot water with the sprayer. When I got done with the cleaning, I shopvac'd and dried the machine and gave the important surfaces a spray of way oil. That seemed to fend off any forming rust.

    However, that cleaning helped the encoder die. The thing had coolant leak into it and dry before I had owned it, and the new water just emulsified it and it just coated the inside of the encoder ( I did an autopsy). So that broke the encoder. its now replaced.

    So for the sprayer detail, it has as much pressure as a regular spray bottle, so its not like that was forcing the water into places that weren't already weak. If the water hurt anything, then using coolant would have also caused damage -- wouldn't you think?

    As for the spindle: It could be any of those things, but if it is crying for a rebuilt, I am trying to catch it early. What can I do to diagnose here? Someone said to look for hotspots as a bad bearing will generate heat.

    Whats a typical warm-up time for a spindle? if water was present, would it be forced out?



    For the hotwater: I was using one of those pump-type pressurized sprayers ( like for insecticide, it only has seen water).

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    Of course a Youtube video doesn't necessarily give a "true" reading of the sound but, to me, at least, those
    spindle bearings sound like they're shot--way too noisy for my liking...

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    Try the usual - a mechanic's stethoscope on the housing (carefully!) at the upper and lower bearing locations. If you can reach the motor do them too.

    Take a tenths test indicator and measure deflection of the spindle relative to the housing under moderate prying loads in as many directions as possible, and record the movements. Make sure not to set up the indicator in a way that it's effected by anything during the prying (in other words, don't have in on the table while prying the spindle. It should be on the housing at all times).

    You can get cheap bearing analyzers off eBay, but as to their utility I can't vouch for them. But they (if they work) will give you a record of the vibration profile at speed that can be compared for ongoing maintenance and review.

    If accessible, you can try removing the motor to spindle coupling, then drive the spindle from below (through the taper) with another motor to see if the sound changes. Run the actual spindle motor on its own, check its noise and vibration profile too.

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    Done is done.. but for next time this is good reason to damp/not wet rag wipe clean most spindles. A running spindle can often throw off coolant and the like but washing a non running spindle in any way is taking a big chance.

    Also best to shut the coolant before turning off the spindle.

    Spray cans like WD are the ruin of many machines, not just the spindles but also the works..

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    I am sorry to say this but it sure sounds like the bearings... I am in the same situation at the moment. CIRCA 2010 generic Taiwanese machine that I have punished a bit. Still running it but found a spindle from someone that replaced theirs as a backup. I am running it till it properly dies on me and I will fit the "new" one.

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    Eh, it'll be fine. Run it on max until you see the housing glowing, that's the best way to diagnose these things...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Eh, it'll be fine. Run it on max until you see the housing glowing, that's the best way to diagnose these things...
    Don't even joke with that. Years ago I was running an engraving program on a VERY rush rush part on a beat to hell VF4. It was running at the full 7500 RPM it could go and I noted to my boss that the spindle sounded terrible. He tells me to just keep running it. Not 10 minutes later the spindle siezed up completely. They made me do an emergency break down of the job to set it up on another machine. I figured the tool would be more than luke warm so I used a rag to grab the tool with. It still burned the shit out of my hand. Got a spray bottle with coolant and sprayed it down. It was hot enough that the Leidenfrost effect was making the coolant just skitter off the tool.
    Last edited by CAMasochism; 12-06-2019 at 04:04 PM. Reason: spelling

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    It does not sound funny it sounds shot.
    To me the hand spin noise is way scarier than the running sound.
    Two options are run it until it dies and hope it does not ruin the bearing mount surfaces or take it apart now and replace the bearings.
    I have run spindles that sounded worse in the speed test but when they do this noise making by hand........that's very bad
    You don't have to wait for it to glow, you can do a temp probe check at the bearings but sometimes high temp never shows up, the thing just goes bang and solid.
    Stethoscopes are good, cheapo small microphones held in contact and hooked to a laptop sound input also isolate things but that is just going to tell what you already know, ....It needs to come apart.
    Old school and a very long screwdriver against your ear and spots to hear also works. Actually this is my first go to when isolating noise but I'm a old fart.

    Hot water washing can and does muck with these things but I think there was a problem already in place. You should not be able to wash the lube out that easily and your bearings sound way past just cleaned out.
    You do want to know if it the motor or the spindle itself. Motors and their bearings are so super easy. Spindles are very fussy critters.

    Maybe that encoder fail was sign of bearing failure. Most encoders do not like slop and if you kiss that glass disc with the head it is all over.
    I don't know this machines construction but it looks like a conventional separate motor and spindle.

    As a aside and probably of no note here but I never run a spindle with a drawbar empty at any sort of speed. Some of them don't like that.
    Bob

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    Gentss, thank you for all of your inputs. I talked to a few spindle repair shops and told them my story. The current guess is that the top bearing probably got some crap washed into it. So I need to get it out of the head and take a look.

    Does anyone know how these belleville springs are loaded? If I take this cap off, will they fly into my face?

    I figure I could do a light disassembly to see if there is any huge problem awaiting me, as opposed to just changing out bearings.

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    I would suggest that you have a proper spindle rebuilder do the work. Yes, it's more expensive but you'll save going through the effort/time/cost of DIY only to have a proper shop redo it when you puck it up. No offense, but rebuilding spindles isn't the job for someone new and without the right equipment.

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    Like I said motors are easy peasy, spindles are not.
    Spindles are sort of art work but sometimes it all works fine.
    You never know so as Milland says you may puck a few up in the learning process.
    I have been lucky to have had very good teachers, mentors, and friends over the years from top spindle building houses.
    One has to understand the design of the spindle you are in and bearing classes and fits.
    Price tags for this work done right are scary so I get those who want to try to go it alone but that is a crap shoot. Do you even know the different grease types and bearing cc fills?
    That and more is what you pay the guys who make a living at it for.
    I'm sure many have done it at home, survived and tell the tale for the world to see, those who died often do not post on the net about their failure.

    I actually have a deep love for in-shop hacking a rebuild such as this and cleaning the parts in the kitchen sink but I'm out a bit on many limbs just waiting to break.

    If you take this apart make sure you understand each little piece and how or why it functions and why it was designed in.
    Anything that says "weird" means that you are not inside the original designer's mindset.
    Bob

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    Q; [Does this spindle sound funny?] No..there is nothing funny about a spindle that sounds like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    ... No..there is nothing funny about a spindle that sounds like that.
    Yes indeed.
    It is crying and asking for help in the only way it knows how to and hoping the owner will answer.
    Bob

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    Something is shot. Could be spindle or motor, but something has very bad bearings for sure.

    Dont feel bad, I doubt water caused this. Usually water causes corrosion which causes problems like this down the road, after some use. But wouldn't happen overnight. The spindle is probably sealed off fairly well anyway.

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    Saturday update: I have removed the spindle from the mill and am cleaning it up. Before I took it out, I gently turned the spindle with the drivemotor belts removed to detect any strangeness in the rotation. I was able to find a 'hole' in the rotation, kinda like if you inched up to a speedbump and then needed to give the car more gas to get over the hump. So, I am excited to see what it is that is causing me such grief. I am curious if a tiny bit of swarf got into the mix there.

    Don't worry, I fully plan on sending the unit to a pro for the actual rebuild. I dont have the required presses to do the bearing switch.


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