Doosan VMC vs Haas VMC
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    Default Doosan VMC vs Haas VMC

    Hey all,

    I'm currently looking to purchase another VMC and am considering the Doosan DNM 4500 (or 4500S) or Haas VF2SS (or VF2SSYT). This machine will primarily be used to cut titanium and stainless steel. I'm mainly looking for accuracy. From what I've gathered on this forum and others, it seems that the Doosan DNM is a more reliable and accurate machine in comparison to the Haas VFSS. I asked my local HFO about the VM2 which is a similar price to the Doosan, but they said that due to recent upgrades in this past decade, the VF2SS is "99% the machine of the VM2". I currently have two VF2SS and have no issues but I do want to know if Doosan is worth the extra ~$10K.

    If anyone here has had experience with both Doosan and Haas VMCs, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidmaster23 View Post
    Hey all,

    I'm currently looking to purchase another VMC and am considering the Doosan DNM 4500 (or 4500S) or Haas VF2SS (or VF2SSYT). This machine will primarily be used to cut titanium and stainless steel. I'm mainly looking for accuracy. From what I've gathered on this forum and others, it seems that the Doosan DNM is a more reliable and accurate machine in comparison to the Haas VFSS. I asked my local HFO about the VM2 which is a similar price to the Doosan, but they said that due to recent upgrades in this past decade, the VF2SS is "99% the machine of the VM2". I currently have two VF2SS and have no issues but I do want to know if Doosan is worth the extra ~$10K.

    If anyone here has had experience with both Doosan and Haas VMCs, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

    With the type of work you are doing, Doosan is worth the extra money just for the weight difference of those machines. Not to mention box vs. Linear way, etc. etc.

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    I worked for Doosan for years. The DNM is a great machine. VERY robust, heavy,and well built. It's made with a 30 year life span. Very solid and made for cutting tough stuff. 30 tool ATC, probe ready, Fanuc 0iM-F CNC with most of the options as standard. Full contact spindle, coolant thru, high speed atc, roll out coolant tank, grease pack lubrication, high pressure ready, a winner. I'd buy one tomorrow if I were looking for one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolmaker96 View Post
    With the type of work you are doing, Doosan is worth the extra money just for the weight difference of those machines. Not to mention box vs. Linear way, etc. etc.
    Just to be super clear, the parts I'll be making are fairly small. The stock material will be a 5/8" square at maximum, so would the additional weight still make an impact? I've seen people mention the box vs linear way, but do you know what exactly makes one superior to the other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    I worked for Doosan for years. The DNM is a great machine. VERY robust, heavy,and well built. It's made with a 30 year life span. Very solid and made for cutting tough stuff. 30 tool ATC, probe ready, Fanuc 0iM-F CNC with most of the options as standard. Full contact spindle, coolant thru, high speed atc, roll out coolant tank, grease pack lubrication, high pressure ready, a winner. I'd buy one tomorrow if I were looking for one.
    Thanks for the insight Douglas. What machine did you purchase and how much did it run you?

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    Is it worth learning a new control. And the employees learning a new control and the new haas has dynamic work offsets and tcpc if you are wanting to put a rotary on it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    Quote Originally Posted by D Nelson View Post
    Is it worth learning a new control. And the employees learning a new control and the new haas has dynamic work offsets and tcpc if you are wanting to put a rotary on it


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Since I've never used Fanuc or any other controller, I'm not sure how big the learning curve would be. Pierson Workholding put out a video yesterday about their Doosan Lathe and that their controller is better than the Fanuc ones in the past, but he also mentions that the Haas control is much more intuitive.

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    Haas has their control figured out and on YouTube there is all kinds of help. Even for the probing setting up 2nd home positions. I think haas is getting things going the right direction. You can get Hsk spindles now.
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    I have not personally ran a Doosan . but I can tell you I had a 3 year contract for 17-4 parts that kept my vf2ss running around the clock with no issues. I did a smaller titanium job ( around 800 parts ) also with no issues. I remember at the time the local haas salesman didn't want to sell a customer a vf2ss because he felt it wouldn't handle cutting 17-4 . he was a Xerox copier repair guy before becoming a Haas salesman. lol. perhaps the doosan salesman could take you to a facility that someone has the model you are looking for , that may be running a similar material job? that way you can see first hand what the machine is like. you already having 2 haas have or know what they are like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidmaster23 View Post
    Just to be super clear, the parts I'll be making are fairly small. The stock material will be a 5/8" square at maximum, so would the additional weight still make an impact? I've seen people mention the box vs linear way, but do you know what exactly makes one superior to the other?
    Box ways are more rigid and better at transferring vibration, more contact area. They are also a lot more work to build and fit so they generally cost more money. Linear ways are supposed to be able to move faster but I have seen some box way machines with pretty fast rapids. Personally that alone would be enough to make me choose the Doosan.

    Edit, apparently neither are box way machines......I digress
    Last edited by Hardplates; 10-31-2019 at 07:54 AM. Reason: not box way

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    I currently work for Doosan and during my 40+ years in this business I have run most brands of machine tools. I would say the Doosan you are looking at will hold it's own against most brands out there. Oversized linear, roller bearing guides. Not ball guides. Makes for more rigid machining. The 4500S comes pre-configured for most high speed machining including AICC 2, smooth interpolation. The Fanuc control is not hard to learn but yes, it is a Fanuc. Maybe not as intuitive as a Haas but your business is to cut parts accurately. Ellison in SC will be pleased to have you come in and take a look at any machine you would like to see. Also, take a good look at what comes standard on a Doosan. You might be surprised at the cost balance versus optioning out a similar Haas.
    If you have any specific questions you can contact me here in New Jersey or call your local Ellison office. I would be glad to answer any questions you might have.

    Paul Anderson
    Applications Engineer
    Doosan Machine Tools America
    973=618-2457
    [email protected]

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    Maybe not on your radar, but if the job(s) go belly up and you run into trouble you will have no problem selling a used Haas machine. Doubt you could unload a Doosan very easily...

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    If you are doing parts under an inch in size, why don't you really step up and get a Brother machine? It may take extra programming but it will outproduce either of those two machines on small little parts like you describe.

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    The Haas is Haas, a great light duty machine.

    I have quite a few and do like them but they have limitations do to their light duty builds. Take a heavy cut and the machine tells you it's not happy...but still takes it sorta kinda. Meaning is the size may be off a bit needing a cleanup pass when a more robust mill would not. Or the spindle runs in the Overloaded Red area so you opt for a second cut. Still the job gets done and for me having all the machines with same control is enough of a benefit to put new ones on my floor. Also the ability to call one service place with a quick knowledgeable response is and has been a huge factor.

    BUT let me tell you the other side which I know face here...I have no more space for more spindles. So to get more work out I'll be needing to push the machines harder to produce more and that will be an issue for the Haas machines. I can run them harder...but they will need an extra cut to get the finish and size and the lack of rigidity takes its toll on the tooling. Or in short, pushing the Haas harder has the Haas pushing back.
    So as I grow I will either be buying a Haas HD machine or finding a brand such as Doosan, Okuma or... that I can get push harder for higher production. AND sinse Haas does not have a HD line the choice becomes more clear.

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    I have owned and ran both and from what I see in your case you literally are comparing apples to apples when looking at the DNM4500S Vs the VF2SS. The 15K spindle standard on the 4500S is nice but since this will be an all small part Ti machine right. How small of a tool will you be using that the 15K spindle will see all that speed? The regular 4500 gives you a massive torque advantage over the Haas at a much cheaper price.

    The Haas 12K spindle has almost the same peak torque as the 4500S but holds it a bit longer and I can see using 12K in Ti often. Where the Haas would take the lead in that department is they have so many different spindles configs to choose from. Neither machine offers Big Plus spindles so the only dual contact you can get is either the 12K or 15K HSK-63 on the Haas (Both are less than $10 grand options). But once again, Do you need dual contact for your application on small parts?

    Next you have the control options Haas, An easy to use, simple to repair system that you already have and know. Then Fanuc, An Absolute bullet proof, proven work horse that will probably not get an upgrade until Jesus comes back. I like Fanuc for its reliability but it looses some points because of is clumsy interface. I don't like how you have to finger around so many places to perform simple task. And Haas verses Fanuc probing? Haas is simply light years ahead.

    And then there is your dealer, where in your case it would be a difficult decision. For the Doosan you've got Ellison. Very well equipped for sales and service and in your location you have Daniel Knipp for your contact, Never heard a complaint about the location or Dan. Ken Pots is the head guy handling Ca for Haas last I remember and 'Phillips/Haas HFO just nail it when it comes to service. Ellison has I think 40 stocking locations for parts verses Haas, Well, I don't really know. But it's quite a lot and then you have the main facility right there in your state.

    Seems you have a tough decision on your hands. If it were me, and just my 2 cents, I would go with the Haas ONLY because you already have a couple and know the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidmaster23 View Post
    Just to be super clear, the parts I'll be making are fairly small. The stock material will be a 5/8" square at maximum, so would the additional weight still make an impact? I've seen people mention the box vs linear way, but do you know what exactly makes one superior to the other?

    Assuming you are buying a box way Doosan (which are still available) As stated above box way are way more rigid. As far as weight goes, weight (extra steel mass) dampens vibration. Ever go to a machine show where they are running Haas machines? Sound like a rattling tin can. Our 4020 Daewoo weighs almost twice what the equivalent sized haas weighs in at.
    There are some shortcoming to Box way such as slip/stick. But to me the benefits of box way, far out weigh the negatives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    I have owned and ran both and from what I see in your case you literally are comparing apples to apples when looking at the DNM4500S Vs the VF2SS. The 15K spindle standard on the 4500S is nice but since this will be an all small part Ti machine right. How small of a tool will you be using that the 15K spindle will see all that speed? The regular 4500 gives you a massive torque advantage over the Haas at a much cheaper price.

    The Haas 12K spindle has almost the same peak torque as the 4500S but holds it a bit longer and I can see using 12K in Ti often. Where the Haas would take the lead in that department is they have so many different spindles configs to choose from. Neither machine offers Big Plus spindles so the only dual contact you can get is either the 12K or 15K HSK-63 on the Haas (Both are less than $10 grand options). But once again, Do you need dual contact for your application on small parts?

    Next you have the control options Haas, An easy to use, simple to repair system that you already have and know. Then Fanuc, An Absolute bullet proof, proven work horse that will probably not get an upgrade until Jesus comes back. I like Fanuc for its reliability but it looses some points because of is clumsy interface. I don't like how you have to finger around so many places to perform simple task. And Haas verses Fanuc probing? Haas is simply light years ahead.

    And then there is your dealer, where in your case it would be a difficult decision. For the Doosan you've got Ellison. Very well equipped for sales and service and in your location you have Daniel Knipp for your contact, Never heard a complaint about the location or Dan. Ken Pots is the head guy handling Ca for Haas last I remember and 'Phillips/Haas HFO just nail it when it comes to service. Ellison has I think 40 stocking locations for parts verses Haas, Well, I don't really know. But it's quite a lot and then you have the main facility right there in your state.

    Seems you have a tough decision on your hands. If it were me, and just my 2 cents, I would go with the Haas ONLY because you already have a couple and know the system.
    Just to clarify the highlighted statement, ALL Doosan mills come standard with Big Plus spindles. You can't even order a regular spindle. As for 12K or 15K, personally, I agree with this poster that you would be better off with the 12K spindle IF you don't need the 4500S version with the Smooth Surfacing Package. The standard machine only has 40 block look ahead and it will cost to add these options. If you foresee ever needing the S version, get it before you need it.

    Paul

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    ......Then Fanuc, An Absolute bullet proof, proven work horse that will probably not get an upgrade until Jesus comes back. ......
    Also will have parts support until Jesus comes back. Haas controls, not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Squidmaster23 View Post
    Hey all,

    I'm currently looking to purchase another VMC and am considering the Doosan DNM 4500 (or 4500S) or Haas VF2SS (or VF2SSYT). This machine will primarily be used to cut titanium and stainless steel. I'm mainly looking for accuracy. From what I've gathered on this forum and others, it seems that the Doosan DNM is a more reliable and accurate machine in comparison to the Haas VFSS. I asked my local HFO about the VM2 which is a similar price to the Doosan, but they said that due to recent upgrades in this past decade, the VF2SS is "99% the machine of the VM2". I currently have two VF2SS and have no issues but I do want to know if Doosan is worth the extra ~$10K.

    If anyone here has had experience with both Doosan and Haas VMCs, I'd love to hear your thoughts.
    I'm kinda in the same boat on trying to figure out what to buy next. as my fadal is old 96 makes good parts and in good condition but its a 96 and it will die sometime.so I want something that will replace it due to the problems below.

    I have a vf2ss it flat out sucks using facemills and indexable inserted endmills on stainless 303 and 321 304 316 as well as inconel both small and big parts even with light cuts. the machines basically beats itself to death.even 4340 its loud and chunky all those jobs go on my Fadal as they have too. I dont push my machines as I am more concerned about perfect parts than time.
    for solid carbide endmills the vf2ss works great on the above . and obviously alum anything works.
    I love it for alum and plastic fast and repeats with in tenths, true position is incredible as well as finish.

    a friend has a shop filled with doosons running the exact same jobs They have NO problems with the machine beating the crap out of it self with the same tooling cuts etc etc like on my vf2ss.

    As far as the control I dont see any problems on any machines fanuc ,yasnacs haas fadal. there all basically the same as long as you KNOW and understand G-code. if you dont you need to learn it!I been doing this for 30 years and started with numeric controls have currently 8 different controls on different machines we run everyday. most are fanucs all different ages, then yasnacs fadal omniturns etc.

    on the con side of the 2 your only problem is mainly changing the program structure a tad between HAAS and ANYTHING takes a whopping 5-10 mins on a text editor again if you know how to read g-code.

    as far as resell tons of used haas's out there but most are beat to shit by inexperienced users that were looking to get into a cheap machine to start with.


    Now all that being said I think the problem is mainly with the SS series. as friends have non SS haas machines that use index able inserts and dont sound or beat the machine near as bad as the ss does. My feeling is that the SS machine has too fast a ball screw. rotate a little and move alot which causes the vibration when cutting. slower non ss haas machines seem cut pretty good with indexables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LockNut View Post
    Just to clarify the highlighted statement, ALL Doosan mills come standard with Big Plus spindles. You can't even order a regular spindle. As for 12K or 15K, personally, I agree with this poster that you would be better off with the 12K spindle IF you don't need the 4500S version with the Smooth Surfacing Package. The standard machine only has 40 block look ahead and it will cost to add these options. If you foresee ever needing the S version, get it before you need it.

    Paul

    Interesting, When did that become a standard feature? I'll have to run over and see why the shop manager isn't running any Big Plus tools in the two 2015 DNM's That are taking a punishing on S7 and P20.


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