Dream machine, help choosing NEW CNC.

CJPizza · Jan 28, 2015

Our machine shop is looking to buy our first tool changing CNC. We currently own and use a CNC bed mill with out a tool changer, a alzmetal drill press and a knee mill. The machining work we do isn't production work per say we aren't make 50 or 100 of any one item. We would plan for this machine to handle 50 different jobs a day. SO we need a controller that can handle rapid program transition.

Through some research we have been able to nail down a few specifications.

We want:
4 axis machine
400mm pallet size
30 hp upper bound
up to a 9 pallet changer system
direct drive on both spindle and pallet indexer
and a high performance controller

Other:
CAD/CAM systems

Have looked at the Doosan 4000 II. in depth but they are only offered with the fanuc controller and you guys seem to hate :mad5:

that with a passion. So i was wondering what your advice would be.

RC Mech · Jan 28, 2015

There's nothing wrong with Fanuc- they're ubiquitous in the manufacturing world. The issue most people have is that there exists more user-friendly controls, and the manuals are written in Fanuc-ese, so they're difficult to follow. So much so that you can use "Fanuc'd" as a verb to describe someone stumbling through the manuals/OS.

Everything you want the Fanuc will do.

Fanuc also gets a bad reputation from their attempt at conversational programming. More user-friendly conversational controls would be Mazatrol, Siemens Simnumerik, Haas.

CJPizza · Jan 28, 2015

Exactly. We are not the most brilliant crew and I'm looking to make this as friendly of a process, we have the rescources to get what we want and need so I'm on the search. Our distributor wants to charge us 3k for 8MB of program memory. On our current bed mill we have 7.55MB of programs already written. This seems ridiculous to me please show me how that isn't.

TeachMePlease · Jan 28, 2015

I'll throw in a quick plug for the machine I've been running for the last few weeks: A Mori Seiki NHX4000. TSC, 12K RPM, 25/15HP, Mori's MAPPS controller.... With a Blum for tool setting and a Renishaw for part probing, it couldn't be easier to do multiple setups. I've no experience with other HMCs, but this thing is tits....

mkd · Jan 28, 2015

With 9 pallets, 150 tool magazine would be an absolute minimum. 250 better yet
Generally not field upgradable. ....well tons of money can fix anything

Mike1974 · Jan 28, 2015

I could be wrong, and I am sure there are some that will disagree, but isn't going from your current equipment to a horizontal with a pallet pool a HUGE jump?? You are looking at over $300k, and that is for a Haas. Not sure what other HMC's are at, but I would guess closer to $500k. Sure a pallet system is great if you want to run multiple jobs and be in and out of the machine, provided you have someone who can set that all up. I would think an $80k vf2 with probing and all the options would be a much better starting machine IMO. I know there are a lot of Haas haters here, but they are great machines for not only people starting out in cnc (super friendly controls) but in general.

CJPizza · Jan 28, 2015

Yes we are looking at a huge jump. We are towards the bursting end of our current production. This is the first new machine in 10 years. the last quote i got was 500k and was accepted by CEO as what he expected. The pallet pool is the sad requirement of our industry and our desire to avoid another employee.

jid2 · Jan 28, 2015

Big leaps are awesome, it shows you understand what you need. I'll agree that you should pay whatever they are asking to get as many tools as possible in the machine.

I'll also agree that Fanuc is crap unless it has lots of memory standard and somebodies user interface over the top of it to make it usable.

TeachMePlease · Jan 28, 2015

Well, I think the Mori with options is gonna be close to your $500K, and that's with two pallets and a 40 tool changer. I know they have various pallet options, not sure about additional tools (probably), but it might bump your price up.

CJPizza · Jan 28, 2015

it will probably bump that. but if the programming is better and i can run a modular programing system on the control. it saves us having to hire a full time programer for two years which is expensive. Thanks for the Mori suggestion my boss thinks its great so far. Yeah the mori looks more expensive but seems to be way more capable and clean.

dstryr · Jan 28, 2015

TeachMePlease said:
Well, I think the Mori with options is gonna be close to your $500K, and that's with two pallets and a 40 tool changer. I know they have various pallet options, not sure about additional tools (probably), but it might bump your price up.

I think the NHX in the 400mm is around $250k base with 2 pallets and 60 tools.

dstryr · Jan 28, 2015

CJPizza said:
it will probably bump that. but if the programming is better and i can run a modular programing system on the control. it saves us having to hire a full time programer for two years which is expensive. Thanks for the Mori suggestion my boss thinks its great so far. Yeah the mori looks more expensive but seems to be way more capable and clean.

Where are you located? I hope you are budgeting for a good cad/cam as well.

CJPizza · Jan 28, 2015

dstryr said:
Where are you located? I hope you are budgeting for a good cad/cam as well.

Washington, USA yes planning on a CAD/CAm can you ball park a cost on that?

jid2 · Jan 28, 2015

$10-$15K for good CAD/CAM, and you would be silly to program a horizontal at the machine.

CJPizza · Jan 28, 2015

sadly being "silly" is what our business does we take every "convention" and "good business advice" and turn it on its head. We seem to be able to do it though. Programming wise we have 200 "porting" options that can go on 600 parts so my options are either we have to program all 120,000 programs and pick them from the files or instead have a system for saying i have this part and this port marry these 2 together right now.

peter.blais · Jan 28, 2015

I think the point being made there is that that machine should bill out time at hundreds of dollars an hour to make it worthwhile... So standing in front of it with it NOT running to program a part is a sort of a waste of it's time ($$$).

You might ask if the conversational can be used while it's running a program. 2 birds, 1 stone, that way.

gkoenig · Jan 28, 2015

Every successful ship in the Portland area that studies out horizontal work either ends up with a Mori or a Makino. Interesting thing I've also noticed is that all the local Mori horizontals in town are freestanding machines where all the Makinos I've seen here are running in multi pallet cells.

As far as easy to use is concerned; I'm not a machinist, but when I had a pressing part and my local shop lost their main programmer, the owner let me set up one of my parts on an NH4000. Aside from messing around on another friend's Haas, my CNC experience consists of playing with HSM Works and reading the interwebs. Over the course of about 7 hours, I set up the tools, make a Pitbull clamp fixture and got our part running on the Mori's MAAPS, a control I had never even touched before. He had one of his swiss programmers watching over my shoulder to make sure I didn't G00 the spindle into the tombstone, but aside from that, it all went relatively smoothly. Having done it once, I could probably do it again in about half the time. I would call that pretty easy to use.

jid2 · Jan 28, 2015

Sounds like you want to learn about Macro programming. Store those in the control for your 200 porting options, along with the 600 parts and enter the number combinations.

minikeg121 · Jan 28, 2015

This is the latest NHX we offer, they list different options for pallet changers under the automation tab....

Either the CPP or LPP would work for you...

NHX 4000 - A Milling Machine by DMG MORI

Mtndew · Jan 28, 2015

have a look at Okuma and Mori. Those are great machines.

Dream machine, help choosing NEW CNC.

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