drill off center without a Y axis?

Hey guys,

This may be a stupid question, but is there any possible way to drill radial holes off center in a live tooling lathe WITHOUT a Y axis?

The particular part i'm hoping to do this on is 6061 aluminium that i am now getting in a custom extrusion (i used to start with 25x50 rectangle bar and do a ton of milling on it, but with 1000ish a year it was worth getting an extrusion done). With the custom extrusion all that needs to be done now is cut to length, face each end and drill/tap 8 offset m4 holes each side (4 offset one way 4 offset the other way) so i'd love to just bar feed it and have finished parts come out without me touching them.

I was thinking possibly making a custom offset holder might be doable? being only m4 holes there's basically no machining load on them, so regidity is clearly not going to be an issue - i could even run an offset die grinder type tool for the drilling seeing as it's only a 3.3mm hole.

Any thoughts brains trust?

You can get offset Tool Holders. But your hole would have to be exactly the same as the offset holder. I believe MD Tools makes them. I am unaware of any that are adjustable (Million dollar idea everyone).

R

litlerob1 - I've looked for such holders, and I'd swear asked an MD rep at a little dealer trade show - and no dice. Do you have a link to one? (While it seems like a truly obvious idea, I've never been able to find a holder with adjustable center/y height for radial drilling on non-y axis lathes.)

Productfinder - heimatec GmbH

try these guys

bryan_machine said:

litlerob1 - I've looked for such holders, and I'd swear asked an MD rep at a little dealer trade show - and no dice. Do you have a link to one? (While it seems like a truly obvious idea, I've never been able to find a holder with adjustable center/y height for radial drilling on non-y axis lathes.)

Click to expand...

Heard, now I can't seem to find one. But I would have bet $1.00 that I've seen them.

R

I believe its possible as I have thought about it as well but by accident. I was trying to get a milling live tool to do some different work and it looked like I could move it to suit my needs. I havent tried it on my Miyano with out the y axis I believe I can modify a holder to do to. but I have alot of room to work with on the holders. My older citizen I dont have lots of room. both are twin turret machines.

What type of machine are you working with? if you have room ie tooling big enough I would say yes you can do about anything, if its small live tooling tool holders then its going to be tough.

I have like 20-25 live tooling toolholders for my citizen so I took a few apart and was playing, the Miyano is same style but bigger so figured I had room.

Delw said:

I believe its possible as I have thought about it as well but by accident. I was trying to get a milling live tool to do some different work and it looked like I could move it to suit my needs. I havent tried it on my Miyano with out the y axis I believe I can modify a holder to do to. but I have alot of room to work with on the holders. My older citizen I dont have lots of room. both are twin turret machines.

What type of machine are you working with? if you have room ie tooling big enough I would say yes you can do about anything, if its small live tooling tool holders then its going to be tough.

I have like 20-25 live tooling toolholders for my citizen so I took a few apart and was playing, the Miyano is same style but bigger so figured I had room.

Click to expand...

Currently all i have is an ST30 ATC/MC - which has oddball live tool holders and is probably not a great candidate for this job.

I am currently looking to buy (waiting on some shipping quotes) a Multiplex 630 that has a more standard vdi style tool and a regular turret design, this is what i would be planning to run these parts on (having the 2 spindles would allow the handoff and facing of the back side as well)

I may just play around with some CAD and see what i can come up with.

Buy some whatever-you-can-find driven tools on ebay and butcher them to make your own. I have done it a couple of times in the past for oddball jobs. The hardest part is obviously power transmission, but you can do it with off the shelf gears.

If you are clever about tooling (combined drill/tap/c'sink) you may be able to get away with just one.

@pcasanova -> heimatec -> maybe there is one

Productfinder - heimatec GmbH

I'll have to follow up - scheme like you'd expect - you move the head on a constant radius (or eccentric) so that for each Y offset, there is a different X offset - which is just fine since you are going to set the Y offset and then set X and Z anyway. (Well, on machines like mine the tool eye might not be able to cope, so setup will be more laborious.... But this can be overcome....)

xa-mont said:

Currently all i have is an ST30 ATC/MC - which has oddball live tool holders and is probably not a great candidate for this job.

Click to expand...

I have the same machine. No, you are not going to get a machine powered live tool to drill an offset hole with this machine. Nobody makes tools for a 30 year old machine.

For a one off job, I have rigged up a holder to fit an air powered die grinder held at an angle to machine a feature using the X and C-axis, but it was a real Rube Goldberg setup. No way would I even think about doing this for production.

Do the Multiplex machines have a Y-axis now? I know the older ones didn't have it. If that's the case, you would be better off going with a machine with a Y-axis instead.

Philabuster said:

I have the same machine. No, you are not going to get a machine powered live tool to drill an offset hole with this machine. Nobody makes tools for a 30 year old machine.

For a one off job, I have rigged up a holder to fit an air powered die grinder held at an angle to machine a feature using the X and C-axis, but it was a real Rube Goldberg setup. No way would I even think about doing this for production.

Do the Multiplex machines have a Y-axis now? I know the older ones didn't have it. If that's the case, you would be better off going with a machine with a Y-axis instead.

Click to expand...

The multiplex I'm looking at is an older one still, so no y axis and still just a positional C (sadly) but seeing as the holders are mounted in a radial position (unlike the ATC/mc where a radial tool is a 90° holder) I think it would be easier to make something to do the job.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

on a lathe, the X is just Y offset by 90 degrees, right? also, most lathes have a XY-XC interpolation mode which should do something similar.

edit: ST30? you're looking for G112

coyoinu said:

on a lathe, the X is just Y offset by 90 degrees, right? also, most lathes have a XY-XC interpolation mode which should do something similar.

Click to expand...

Not quite mate. Without a y axis your tool in a radial live holder is always pointing directly to Centerline, which won't allow you to drill offset from the centreline, no matter how much xc/zc interpolation you use

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

ah, radial instead of axial, gotcha.

bryan_machine said:

@pcasanova -> heimatec -> maybe there is one

Productfinder - heimatec GmbH

I'll have to follow up - scheme like you'd expect - you move the head on a constant radius (or eccentric) so that for each Y offset, there is a different X offset - which is just fine since you are going to set the Y offset and then set X and Z anyway. (Well, on machines like mine the tool eye might not be able to cope, so setup will be more laborious.... But this can be overcome....)

Click to expand...

might not be that hard to setup. granted you would need a "gauge tool" for every y-distance you would want to set.
Put a say 1/2" pin on the tool, make a gauge the has a flat machined on a bar at desired distance from c/l.
rotate the pin down on the live tool until the gauge rotates and flattens out against the pin, lock the arc down.
"scratch" the face with the pin and offset z-.25. should get you pretty close.

Here’s a drawing I have for one. They do exist.

I just got pricing on one of these a few months back. It’s a great idea. Only problem is the thing is about 5 digits.

Plus I have an older SL-250SMC so they wanted a few more grand to modify it for my machine. Would have been great, except for the price.

Maybe make a set of off-center collets to hold the workpiece. Face with a z axis live tool

coyoinu said:

ST30? you're looking for G112

Click to expand...

FYI, This machine is a 30 year old Mazak--not a much newer Haas.

xa-mont said:

Hey guys,

This may be a stupid question, but is there any possible way to drill radial holes off center in a live tooling lathe WITHOUT a Y axis?

The particular part i'm hoping to do this on is 6061 aluminium that i am now getting in a custom extrusion (i used to start with 25x50 rectangle bar and do a ton of milling on it, but with 1000ish a year it was worth getting an extrusion done). With the custom extrusion all that needs to be done now is cut to length, face each end and drill/tap 8 offset m4 holes each side (4 offset one way 4 offset the other way) so i'd love to just bar feed it and have finished parts come out without me touching them.

I was thinking possibly making a custom offset holder might be doable? being only m4 holes there's basically no machining load on them, so regidity is clearly not going to be an issue - i could even run an offset die grinder type tool for the drilling seeing as it's only a 3.3mm hole.

Any thoughts brains trust?

Click to expand...

Yamazaki Multiplex 630:

A radial adjusted head like has been shown would work fine for your app if you have enough X travel (clearance) but you would need 4 of them as I understand your need.

2 drils and 2 taps.

Now the taps are a bigger deal....
Does this machine have RIGID TAPPING in X/live?
If not, then you need to have a tension (preferably not compression) ability on the toolholder, whether it is built into the head, or you have enough X travel to use a Hardinge TT, or maybe a Tapmatic NC-0 type head.

I found this one on EBAY, but I can't tell if it is of RIGID design or not?




This head looks like a guy could make a new back plate for it that could be clocked 10* or whatnot from std location, or maybe just make it 360* adjustable. It really looks like a simple design to start with for your app doo to the offset nature.
Are you a decent engineer?
Can you design your own way out of a paper bag?
If you can design and modify 4 live holders to fit your needs, and you have much more time than money - go for it!

If your time has more value than watching Lucy reruns, then maybe you want to NOT get this machine, and in stead find one that is newer and has a Y axis and preferably RIGID in cross tapping opps. But - on the other hand, this is a large machine, and if your need is between 2.625 and 3.000 capacity, then to find a machine ready to go - cheap - likely aint gunna happen.

If you only need 65mm or smaller, there are other options out there with Y axis that are 15-20 yrs old now that maybe you should be looking for - at least to compare.


-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox said:

Yamazaki Multiplex 630:

A radial adjusted head like has been shown would work fine for your app if you have enough X travel (clearance) but you would need 4 of them as I understand your need.

2 drils and 2 taps.

Now the taps are a bigger deal....
Does this machine have RIGID TAPPING in X/live?
If not, then you need to have a tension (preferably not compression) ability on the toolholder, whether it is built into the head, or you have enough X travel to use a Hardinge TT, or maybe a Tapmatic NC-0 type head.

I found this one on EBAY, but I can't tell if it is of RIGID design or not?

This head looks like a guy could make a new back plate for it that could be clocked 10* or whatnot from std location, or maybe just make it 360* adjustable. It really looks like a simple design to start with for your app doo to the offset nature.
Are you a decent engineer?
Can you design your own way out of a paper bag?
If you can design and modify 4 live holders to fit your needs, and you have much more time than money - go for it!

If your time has more value than watching Lucy reruns, then maybe you want to NOT get this machine, and in stead find one that is newer and has a Y axis and preferably RIGID in cross tapping opps. But - on the other hand, this is a large machine, and if your need is between 2.625 and 3.000 capacity, then to find a machine ready to go - cheap - likely aint gunna happen.

If you only need 65mm or smaller, there are other options out there with Y axis that are 15-20 yrs old now that maybe you should be looking for - at least to compare.


-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Click to expand...

The old money vs time - wait out for something more feature rich etc problem is one I struggle with a fair bit.

One thing that makes this decision for my a bit more is the fact I live in Australia, so second hand machines (especially ones with a y axis) are in very short supply. Even this multiplex is 1600km away.

It really is slim pickings on this side of the pond. The ONLY y axis lathe I can find for sale used in Aus right now is a (very nice twin live half indexing turret sub spindle, all the fruit) WIA Lm1800ttsy for almost $140000. Which definitely has too many zeros for my budget (I'm very risk averse and would prefer to pay cash for machines).

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk