Ellison first of the year blowout on Lynx 2100LB - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Unfortunately no. That's kind of why I said in post 16 that I can't think of the last time a dealer tech even began to impress me.
    LOL that's fair. I can think of a few, but you are right that they are increasingly becoming a rarity. I blame almost everything on compensation. A lot of the smartest people only stay in a service or apps role until they can get into sales and start making some real money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    ....I blame almost everything on compensation......
    Yup. When I left Ellison, the pay they were offering for a replacement was nearly $30k/year lower.

  3. #23
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    I think a lot of it has to do with the manufacturer ... I was told by Doosan USA that they would "NOT" send me out a new coolant pump and that my dealer would have to get a tech to pull it apart and then order the "PARTS" it needed ,,, that was after months of trying to get my local Ellison dealer to fix it ... Bottom line is I buy and pay for a new machine so I don`t have to deal with ton of BS trying to keep it running and fully expect the dealer to fix any problems that come up in a timely order... for close to a year the pump did not work and at no point did a tech remove or even work on the pump ,,,

    Doosan "REFUSED" to send out a new pump for a new machine even with it being bad and not working for MONTHS

    Funny how Doosan would do nothing to fix a pump, but when the chip auger motor on the new Haas I bought to replace the Doosan went bad a week after I got it .. I made one call to the HFO on monday morning telling them the Auger motor quit working and the next morning I had a new auger motor and gear box delivered early AM by fedex and not a hour later I had a tech here putting it in ...

    I don`t know how service and support is done in south Korea but if they want to sell there products in the US I think they need to take a close look at Ellison and how they support there products.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I think a lot of it has to do with the manufacturer ... I was told by Doosan USA that they would "NOT" send me out a new coolant pump and that my dealer would have to get a tech to pull it apart and then order the "PARTS" it needed ,,, that was after months of trying to get my local Ellison dealer to fix it ... Bottom line is I buy and pay for a new machine so I don`t have to deal with ton of BS trying to keep it running and fully expect the dealer to fix any problems that come up in a timely order... for close to a year the pump did not work and at no point did a tech remove or even work on the pump ,,,

    Doosan "REFUSED" to send out a new pump for a new machine even with it being bad and not working for MONTHS

    Funny how Doosan would do nothing to fix a pump, but when the chip auger motor on the new Haas I bought to replace the Doosan went bad a week after I got it .. I made one call to the HFO on monday morning telling them the Auger motor quit working and the next morning I had a new auger motor and gear box delivered early AM by fedex and not a hour later I had a tech here putting it in ...

    I don`t know how service and support is done in south Korea but if they want to sell there products in the US I think they need to take a close look at Ellison and how they support there products.
    Wow this is ironic...DD Machine the machine you are referring to, the Doosan DNM5700 S/N MV0091000335 I ended up picking up from Ellison. We got in a pinch when a spindle went down on an old Okuma MV45 that we had and Ellison offered us it because we needed a machine in place asap and that "Ellison believed that the previous owner was trying to run it on a phase converter" and there were no issues with the machine. They had it to us and installed in 3 days which I think is pretty darn good service. We have had it since July 2018 and have had zero issues with it....so maybe it was your attempt to run it on a phase converter that created some of your issues? We also have a NHP4000 and a TT1800SY from Ellison and the service and support we personally have received we are very happy with. We hurt a spindle on our NHP4000 and they literally had a spindle to us in two days and were working it as soon as it arrived. Not many companies have that level of support in my opinion. Just figured I would put in my two cents for what it is worth seeing as any of what you are saying I haven't experienced from them.

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by locust30 View Post
    Wow this is ironic...DD Machine the machine you are referring to, the Doosan DNM5700 S/N MV0091000335 I ended up picking up from Ellison. We got in a pinch when a spindle went down on an old Okuma MV45 that we had and Ellison offered us it because we needed a machine in place asap and that "Ellison believed that the previous owner was trying to run it on a phase converter" and there were no issues with the machine. They had it to us and installed in 3 days which I think is pretty darn good service. We have had it since July 2018 and have had zero issues with it....so maybe it was your attempt to run it on a phase converter that created some of your issues? We also have a NHP4000 and a TT1800SY from Ellison and the service and support we personally have received we are very happy with. We hurt a spindle on our NHP4000 and they literally had a spindle to us in two days and were working it as soon as it arrived. Not many companies have that level of support in my opinion. Just figured I would put in my two cents for what it is worth seeing as any of what you are saying I haven't experienced from them.
    Yes I ran it off a rotary converter,, Same one I used for 20 years on a Mori lathe and a Fadal and even a few Fanuc controls over the years ... I have "NEVER" had a problem running off converters before or after that machine ,,, that same converter is running a VF2ss and a DM2
    Today..

    But I did notice this is the vary first post you have made on Practical machinist and it ( SMELLS LIKE SPAM )

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    No sir, I am not spam, I actually read up on Practical Machinist a bunch just never seen the need to sign up until I seen this post and figured I would chime in from what I have experienced with the machine and Ellison. As what was being posted hasn't been what I have experienced so figured I would give my honest opinion on it.

    Sorry for your luck on the DNM5700 but thank you for having issues with it because it saved my butt on some deliveries and we got a killer deal on it! Have a great day!

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    Yes I ran it off a rotary converter,, Same one I used for 20 years on a Mori lathe and a Fadal and even a few Fanuc controls over the years ... I have "NEVER" had a problem running off converters before or after that machine ,,, that same converter is running a VF2ss and a DM2
    Today..

    But I did notice this is the vary first post you have made on Practical machinist and it ( SMELLS LIKE SPAM )
    Hold up a minute... You've told this story about the Doosan not working out multiple times. How Ellison just couldn't make it right, you returned it, yadda yadda.

    And now it turns out you were running that bastard off of a rotary phase converter? That is 20 years old? Couldn't even step up to a Phase Perfect in the last decade?

    I swear to the gods, 3/4 times someone has some funky ghost in the machine business going on that nobody can figure out, it always comes down to some funky issue with power.

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    Gkoenig
    Please learn the facts before getting all half cocked

    At install the machine would alarm out "sometimes" on a tool change and after looking up the alarm it was coming from the little 4" square VFD that ran the tool carousel ,,, Even the tech from Ellison know it was just a simple software change that needed to be done to fix it ,,, BUT he explained to me that he did not know how to change the settings in the VFD .. this alarm would pop up sometimes 2 or 3 times a hour and other times it would go a week at a time ..

    I should point out that not once did the machine ever have a servo amp alarm, spindle drive alarm or any other alarms from the control side of the machine ,,,

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    The TSC pump worked great and I used it on about every job for the first 3 or 4 months tell one day the machine alarmed out in the middle of a part when it went to turn the pump on ,, I reset the control and ran a few more hours and it sent the alarm once more ,, at that point I called the dealer do to the simple fact that when a machine is under warranty I well not touch it .. The dealer sent a guy over and he turned the pump on and off at the control panel and sometimes it would alarm out and other times it would start the pump motor and run fine ... he left and told me he would order a new pump ,,, a few weeks went by and I called and asked were it was and was told they would send out a new guy to look at it .. he came out and did the same thing and I was told once more that they would order a new pump .. this crap went on for "MONTHS"
    Finally I had a talk with the manager of the local Ellison dealer and he told me they would come out and get it fixed. once more they sent a guy out and he did "NOTHING" to fix it ,,,
    that was the point I called Doosan USA and talked to them a couple times about getting this thing fixed ..
    At that point Ellison sent out one of there techs and it was clear that he was not going to do anything ,, I make him work with me and we disconnected the output hose from the pump and the intake hose so it would not have anything to pump and even then it Alarmed out. you could reach in the end of the pump and turn the fan with a screw driver and it was clear that the pump was free to spin ... So that told me that it was down to the pull in contactor or the motor itself that was bad ,,, I put a Amp load meter on the wires going to the pump that was only like .75 HP and when it would start and run it was drawing like 20 to 30 amps of 220V ,, but when it would not start and it would alarm out the control it was drawing 200+ amps of power ...
    Bottom line is pump worked fine for months then would work some times and not others and the dealer would not fix it ... It was to the point were I had to quit using it.

    The final straw was on start up in the mornings I would have to push the manual tool change button 20 or 30 times tell the tool retention cylinder would work and it would not close in the middle of a tool change ,,, first thing in the mornings it would start of with a really light thump sound and after you pushed the button enough times it would make a BANG sound when the piston would open the retention fingers .. I had the dealer come out multiple times and they would squirt WD40 and oil down the air line and up the spindle and nothing worked to fix it ,, it was clear that it was something in the air cylinder after the air valve was changed out ,,, they sent there guy out twice and I was told that they were going to remove the cylinder and fix it ,,,, but it turned out that the guy they sent had not clue how to remove it and both times he never even got his tool box out of his truck ,,, that was the point I told them to come get the machine ....

    when the machine ran right I really like it ,,, it was ridged and fast and well the Fanuc control sucked it made good parts all day long .. if the dealer would have fixed the machine in a timely fashion I would still own the mill ,,, but when you pay close to 100K cash for a machine and its not getting repaired at all and its clear the dealer is jurking you around for close to a year its time to get the machine pulled out and get a machine that is supported ,,,

    I should point out that Ellison did not want to take the machine back and offered to " FINALLY " put a new pump on it ,, remove and replace the tool retention cylinder and have someone from FANUC come in and check the machine out "ONLY" after I told them to come get it ... but by that point it had been made clear how bad the support was from Ellison that I just wanted the mill gone ...

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    Let it be known, Doosan lathes are a much better value than Haas. I don’t have direct experience but just option-for-option they are priced better, you just have to find it which can be the issue. But from what I see, hear and read they are better made machines as well. And that’s from someone who’s in a Haas-only shop...

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    That is a big load of crap ...


    I have posted about the problems before with Doosan and normally get a load of crap back from Doosan employees ,, All I have to say is please look up all the service records on S/N MV0091000335 then you well find out were I am coming from ..
    DDMachine

    I'm troubled and sorry to hear of your experience. Even tho I no longer work for Doosan, I know the folk in the office and they are a good bunch. I've never seen anyone "give you a load of crap" - but I have seen folk such as Locknut and myself try to help others. Your experience was bad, and that's a terrible thing. I own a machine shop myself, now, and I know what it's like. I've been on both sides of the CNC coin. Perhaps Ellison didn't do you right, and while there's nothing I can do about it, I can assure you that the guys (and gals) I know in Pine Brook work very hard for the customer. Just saying..

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    Like I posted above ,If the Doosan would have been supported properly I would still own them , I think Doosan as a manufacturer needs to take a close look at who they have representing there brand , and when someone like my self reaches out to Doosan for help they should in my eyes be appointed a factory advocate to over see that the dealer gets on the ball and does there jobs ,,, not only to see that the customer is supported properly but also that the dealer is supported by the factory ,,, The experience I had with Ellison and Doosan was not just a single bad choice by one of the company's,, It was repeated bad choices by both Company's

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    Like I posted above ,If the Doosan would have been supported properly I would still own them , I think Doosan as a manufacturer needs to take a close look at who they have representing there brand , and when someone like my self reaches out to Doosan for help they should in my eyes be appointed a factory advocate to over see that the dealer gets on the ball and does there jobs ,,, not only to see that the customer is supported properly but also that the dealer is supported by the factory ,,, The experience I had with Ellison and Doosan was not just a single bad choice by one of the company's,, It was repeated bad choices by both Company's
    As I had said, you were done wrong and it's understandable that you were unhappy. I would be too. But it's painting with a bit of a broad brush to say that "Doosan employees give me a load of crap" - while I only speak for myself, and I'm no longer there, I know that's simply not the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    Like I posted above ,If the Doosan would have been supported properly I would still own them , I think Doosan as a manufacturer needs to take a close look at who they have representing there brand , and when someone like my self reaches out to Doosan for help they should in my eyes be appointed a factory advocate to over see that the dealer gets on the ball and does there jobs ,,, not only to see that the customer is supported properly but also that the dealer is supported by the factory ,,, The experience I had with Ellison and Doosan was not just a single bad choice by one of the company's,, It was repeated bad choices by both Company's
    Some people are just never satisfied, we only have your side of the story, your probably on the list of nightmare customers every company occasionally has to deal with,.

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Some people are just never satisfied, we only have your side of the story, your probably on the list of nightmare customers every company occasionally has to deal with,.
    Which in no way compares to the nightmare of buying a new machine and it not working. For me, that would be a death sentence that I could not survive. Just reading about it scares the shit out of me. It reminds me of the new Mazak that kept dropping tools. That show went on for many months.

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    It is scary as hell when you pay cash for the machine and you need the spindle turning out parts,,, lucky for me I had just gone down a vary bumpy road with a Haas NGC mill ( one of the first VMC`s with the NGC ) that had to get pulled out after 8 months and about 10 control updates that were not fixing it,, As fast as they would try and fix one problem a new one would pop up ... All the time I owned that machine I would have to push the green button and what to see if the spindle was going to get up to speed or if it was going to lock up at 750 RPM yet try and feed at full programmed speed . I think it had something to do with there operator door interlock in the control,,
    but I well say that the HFO had my back and was trying to do everything they could to fix it ,, and in the end I asked them to refit the mill with the older control or remove the machine ,,, Haas factory told the HFO that it could not be changed and they came and picked the machine up and cut me a check and picked up all trucking and rigging cost and were vary nice to deal with about it.

    Do to how the HFO was to deal with had a large part in why I have got two more VMC`s and a turning center from them in the last few years,, Well I am not happy about getting locked out of the control the newer NGC control is working great and only had one problem and it was fixed in about 24 hours.

    Please don`t take it that I am a fan of Haas machines,, but in seattle area there is not a lot of dealers and even fewer with support. my first choice after the Doosan was pulled out was a Okuma 560 but after 3 phone calls to them in a week and no one there picking up a phone and no call back I gave up on it. I reached out to a couple local shops that had Mazak mills and it sounded like it was a crap shoot if you got a good machine or junk.. I think the biggest thing I have learned from all the BS. Is talk to other local shops and find out how the dealer support is in your area and let that be a big part in what brand you go with...

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    As the person responsible for all service operations at Ellison Northwest across many decades, I would offer comment:

    The posts of locust30 and Gkoenig capture the situation well. It is true that Ellison did vend two Doosan products to DD Machine, after many years of mutually good Fadal business with the owner. It is also true that Ellison removed both Doosan machines and refunded money at the request of the customer when the equipment would not run properly on the customer’s rotary type phase converter. It is again true that Ellison resold these two machines to two other customers running on 3 phase power and the equipment has run without issue (and without modification) for these new owners.

    Rotary type phase converters are a very old technology really aimed at the fixed speed induction motors used in various equipment in industry at the time. I remember men that specialized in rotary phase converter “tuning” to get the “wild leg” voltage at an acceptable level for the target device. As CNC machine tools came into the market, it was hit or miss if a given machine would operate correctly on a rotary converter. The newer digital converters have better performance record and more frequently work satisfactory with contemporary machine tools; however, the great majority of machine tool builders recommend their equipment not be used with manufactured phase devises.
    Regarding these two machines in question, as we noted both were resold to other customers, and both have been operating without the intermittent random alarms and faults that we observed while running on a rotary phase converter.

    We regret the incompatibility that this customer experienced, but we are pleased that other customers had the chance to add these machines to their companies. And we wish DD the best as he continues to grow his company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Goes View Post
    As the person responsible for all service operations at Ellison Northwest across many decades, I would offer comment:

    The posts of locust30 and Gkoenig capture the situation well. It is true that Ellison did vend two Doosan products to DD Machine, after many years of mutually good Fadal business with the owner. It is also true that Ellison removed both Doosan machines and refunded money at the request of the customer when the equipment would not run properly on the customer’s rotary type phase converter. It is again true that Ellison resold these two machines to two other customers running on 3 phase power and the equipment has run without issue (and without modification) for these new owners.

    Rotary type phase converters are a very old technology really aimed at the fixed speed induction motors used in various equipment in industry at the time. I remember men that specialized in rotary phase converter “tuning” to get the “wild leg” voltage at an acceptable level for the target device. As CNC machine tools came into the market, it was hit or miss if a given machine would operate correctly on a rotary converter. The newer digital converters have better performance record and more frequently work satisfactory with contemporary machine tools; however, the great majority of machine tool builders recommend their equipment not be used with manufactured phase devises.
    Regarding these two machines in question, as we noted both were resold to other customers, and both have been operating without the intermittent random alarms and faults that we observed while running on a rotary phase converter.

    We regret the incompatibility that this customer experienced, but we are pleased that other customers had the chance to add these machines to their companies. And we wish DD the best as he continues to grow his company.

    ouch....

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Goes View Post
    As the person responsible for all service operations at Ellison Northwest across many decades, I would offer comment:

    The posts of locust30 and Gkoenig capture the situation well. It is true that Ellison did vend two Doosan products to DD Machine, after many years of mutually good Fadal business with the owner. It is also true that Ellison removed both Doosan machines and refunded money at the request of the customer when the equipment would not run properly on the customer’s rotary type phase converter. It is again true that Ellison resold these two machines to two other customers running on 3 phase power and the equipment has run without issue (and without modification) for these new owners.

    Rotary type phase converters are a very old technology really aimed at the fixed speed induction motors used in various equipment in industry at the time. I remember men that specialized in rotary phase converter “tuning” to get the “wild leg” voltage at an acceptable level for the target device. As CNC machine tools came into the market, it was hit or miss if a given machine would operate correctly on a rotary converter. The newer digital converters have better performance record and more frequently work satisfactory with contemporary machine tools; however, the great majority of machine tool builders recommend their equipment not be used with manufactured phase devises.
    Regarding these two machines in question, as we noted both were resold to other customers, and both have been operating without the intermittent random alarms and faults that we observed while running on a rotary phase converter.

    We regret the incompatibility that this customer experienced, but we are pleased that other customers had the chance to add these machines to their companies. And we wish DD the best as he continues to grow his company.
    The other side of the story, that's good to know.

    Probably cost Doosan some considerable amount of money, and a black mark on their reputation, all because somebody can't supply clean 3-phase.

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    John Goes is not telling the full story on the Doosan machines ..

    Like I pointed out before yes I run rotary converters and have for more than 30 years ,,, over that time I have ran easily 50+ cnc machines off of them and including other Fanuc control machines with ZERO power problems... like I pointed out before the DNM5700 in question ran the main control , servo drives and spindle drive just fine ,, it was the coolant pump , VFD alarm for the tool carousel and the tool retention fingers that had the problems on the mill ,,, "NOT ONE TIME DID THE MAIN CONTROL ALARM " like I have always wrote, the machine its self was good,, It was the support in getting it fixed that was the down side ,,,

    The 220lsyc lathe was 100% a dealer problem from ELLISON northwest
    I ordered the lathe with a LNS bar feeder from Ellison and part of ordering a bar feeder is a $1,500 install charge were LNS fly's out a install guy to install the bar feed and get the software loaded in the machine control and do some simple training on the bar feeder ..

    I payed Ellison for the install on the bar feeder and ellison scheduled the install for the bar feeder with LNS ,,, The guy was scheduled to be here about 9am in the morning and he did not make it tell after 6pm at night ,,, he drilled 4 holes in the floor and bolted it down and "LEFT" at not time did he power up the lathe or load the software as he should have done ,,, I know there was a problem and called up Ellison the next morning and explained to them what had taken place the day before and was told by Vince ( head of service and support at that time ) that Ellison would take care of it ,,, I should point out that Ellison had no application guys in Washington state at that time. after months of the machine being here and the bar feeder not working they sent in a guy from there Oregon office to power up the machine and get the bar feeder working ,,, he spent about a hour with me on training with the control and then spent all day Thursday and friday trying to get the bar feeder to work ,, he did get it to the point were it would push stock but never got it to load a new bar. he left early that friday to drive back to Oregon and told me he would be back sometime the next week to work some more on it ,,, A few weeks later I called Ellison and asked when there were coming back to get it running and was told by Ellison that they had a better guy that know more and they would send him up from Oregon to get it running ,,, I spent close to a year asking for the "other" guy to come get the machine running and every time it was the same thing " we well have the other guy from Oregon come get it going"
    At that point I had the machine for over a year and a half and it had under 3 hours on it ,,, I needed a bar feeder lathe like I had ordered and payed them for ,,, I should make it clear that the problem originated with the LNS guy not doing his job ,,, But I payed Ellison for the bar feeder and the install and it was up to Ellison to get the LNS guy back out and fix it or for Ellison to fix it ...

    So for John Goes to try and come on here and point the finger at a rotary phase converter is just bad information... The lathe ran fine and it was not a power thing at all ,,, it was bad customer service by Ellison ,the lathe ran just fine.
    It just would not feed stock.

    Bottom line is that Ellison pays there people way below what Mori or selway does and anyone that is good leaves them ,,, years ago Ellison was a vary good dealer and there service was top notch ,, but when they split with Mori and Mori hired Ellison`s service manager he hired all of the good service guys away from Ellison. I get that Ellison got screwed when Mori left ,, but they still need to take care of there customers and support the Doosan line that they have ...

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    I can tell you my experience with Ellison was as bad. . . Or maybe worse, since they wouldn’t take the machine back.

    I worked with Doosan, who did nothing to help but offered lots of reasons as to why we were the problem, and their machine wasn’t. Wanted us to buy thousands of dollars in tooling to “fix” the problem. Ellison sent several techs out, who fumbled their way through the control and spent the majority of their time on the phone or outside smoking.

    After I left that company the owner called and asked me to be onsite for a few days as Ellison and Doosan would be onsite to finally resolve the issue. I guess there were so many issues like ours, Doosan sent a team of guys from Korea over on a “good will” tour to get issues taken care of. I’ve told the log version of the story else where, but the short version is, it took 3 guys flying over from Korea to fix the problem. The machine came out of the factory built wrong. They were pissed. I didn’t need to speak Korean to understand that.

    Any time we had issues it was multiple days of down time, as multiple techs would try to diagnose the issue, a constant stream of different people trying the same things.

    So all that being said, I don’t need to stretch my imagination at all to understand DD’s position. Can’t run it on a rotary? Really? The municipal power at the one shop I worked was worse by far than my RPC.

    Happy to say Yamazen has been 100% the polar opposite Thought I can’t really comment on their service, I haven’t had a tech out once. . . Might have one come out at 2 years for a PM checkup?

  27. Likes D.D.Machine, 2outof3, Garwood liked this post

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